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 Black metal poll reset - 1992-93 

Best pre-94 BM
Darkthrone - A Blaze in the NOrthern Sky 22%  22%  [ 8 ]
Darkthrone - Under A Funeral Moon 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
Burzum- Burzum 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
Burzum - Det Som Engang Var 17%  17%  [ 6 ]
Immortal- Pure Holocaust 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Dissection - The Somberlain 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
Sigh- Scorn Defeat 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Rotting Christ - Thy Mighty Contract 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Blasphemy - Gods of War 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
Beherit- Drawing Down the Moon 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Immortal - Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Masters Hammer - Ritual 11%  11%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 36

 Black metal poll reset - 1992-93 
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Climate Control
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
The Bathory one, yes. The others, obviously not.

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Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:19 pm
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Super Trooper
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
Completely agree with your point there Sol.


Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:33 pm
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Darth Fucking Vader
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
Meanwhile.....back in reality, those were of course examples of black metal. It's why the 90's SECOND wave was called the SECOND wave. It's why there was a counter WHITE metal movement in the early 80's, while Fenriz was listening to Wham and Billy Idol. Disagreement is irrelevant, these are all facts. It's either revisionism or ignorance to deny it.


Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:54 pm
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
Aaaand you're still objectively wrong. Venom were a NWOBHM band. Fact. The name of the album is irrelevant, the music bears little resemblance to actual black metal. Celtic Frost were... maybe thrash (it's the closest reference point), but always doing their own thing. Mercyful Fate? Oh fuck off, now you're being silly. All influenced the development of BM, certainly but none ever fit the bill.

As for the whole 'second wave' argument, now that is revisionism. Early Bathory & Sodom, maybe Sarcofago could be labelled as the 'first wave' at a stretch, as their respective sounds actually resembled the black metal style but that's about it.

We've done this to death, let's not again, eh?

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Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:10 pm
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Darth Fucking Vader
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
Except the fact is that there was such a thing as black metal in the early to mid 80s. This is unequivocally true.


Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:16 pm
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
robitusson wrote:
Except the fact is that there was such a thing as black metal in the early to mid 80s. This is unequivocally true.


Except for the fact that the bands we're referring to were just as often called heavy metal, speed metal, death metal, thrash metal, etc. Why is it that people championing the first wave argument always selectively neglect that fact? Sodom & Hellhammer certainly had elements of black metal in their sound so I can see the link there but the thrash metal tag is a much better fit for them in my opinion. Celtic Frost weren't as dark as Hellhammer so I see less of a link but Mercyful Fate & Venom have nothing to do with the sound we know as black metal really.

When I think of first wave black metal bands I think of Bathory, Sarcófago & Mayhem predominantly. Root, Master's Hammer, Samael & Sabbat came a bit later but still before the Norwegian scene took off so they should be included too.


Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:58 pm
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
robitusson wrote:
Except the fact is that there was such a thing as black metal in the early to mid 80s. This is unequivocally true.


Bands like Slayer were called black metal.

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Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:00 am
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
opaline wrote:

Except for the fact that the bands we're referring to were just as often called heavy metal, speed metal, death metal, thrash metal, etc. Why is it that people championing the first wave argument always selectively neglect that fact?

So you're saying that black metal came into existence with the "second wave"?


Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:42 am
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
Of course not. I think it was pretty obvious what I was saying if you read the rest of my previous post.


Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:48 am
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Darth Fucking Vader
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
Fair enough. What I mean is, you've only listed "first wave" bands that sound like the "second wave". This is the revisionist view which is what I wanted to confirm.

The fact remains that at the time there were black metal bands that sounded unlike the "second wave". It's just a fact. Sure there were all sorts of names for styles then. It was a more creative time and things were in flux. But looking for bands that sounded like what later became the stylized and more generic sound that came late is either revisionism or not knowing about what black metal was at that time.


Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:59 am
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
The term "black metal" has been used with reference to a particular sound for three decades now. Before that it wasn't really well defined & was used to describe all sorts of bands that don't have much relation to what we know as the black metal sound. To be honest bands like Venom & Mercyful Fate weren't being described as black metal when I first got into them around 1988 so I don't feel you can call my view revisionist. We are far better informed in 2016 than some journalist was in 1983 anyway so what does it matter what people said back then. The term thrash metal didn't become popularly used until a year or so after "Kill 'Em All" & "Show No Mercy" yet we don't go around calling Metallica & Slayer speed metal or power metal just because that's what the media said they were at the time. I'm willing to bet that I could play you a modern band that sounds very similar to Venom or Mercyful Fate & there would be no way you'd refer to them as black metal. That says everything that needs to be said really.


Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:18 am
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
Once again your basic point is that black metal then didn't sound like black metal now, so it wasn't black metal.

Regardless, there is a lot of stuff that gets called black metal now that has no similarity to the "second wave" sound. There are bands who basically do ambient music or death metal that get happily called black metal. Nobody has any problem with this for some reason. But not the original bands that were defined by the term back in the 80s? That's a big no no. Very strange.


Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:27 am
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
Yes that's exactly my basic point but my argument isn't so much based on the fact that these bands don't sound like modern black metal. It's based on the fact that their sound fits so comfortably into another genre. Those new bands you are referring to don't fit comfortably into another existing long-standing genre like Venom (heavy/speed metal) & Mercyful Fate (heavy metal) do. No one would hear Mercyful Fate for the first time & label them with a different subgenre to Judas Priest. Their sound is the very definition of what traditional heavy metal sounds like so that's how they should be described. It really is as simple as that.


Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:03 am
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
It's what they should be described as....according to today. Yes, terms were looser then. They weren't always describing sound necessarily anyway. Mercyful Fate sound like Iron Maiden, so then they're NWoBHM? Yes, it wasn't as specific. But it's the old point, Black Sabbath in 1970 sounded nothing like Maiden in 1980, yet they're both heavy metal.

Sorry but the fact remains... Black metal as a genre began in the early 80s.


Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:15 am
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
Spiny Norman wrote:
Both Darkthrones.


Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:17 pm
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Post Re: Black metal poll reset - 1992-93
Venom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Black Metal

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Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:17 pm
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