www.Terrorizer.com - View topic - The History Bores
TERRORIZER FRONT PAGE
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:41 pm



Reply to topic  [ 281 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 15  Next
 The History Bores 
Author Message
Storm Trooper
Storm Trooper

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:44 pm
Posts: 15990
Post The History Bores
This thread is mainly for the benefit of Zagreus, Lawnchair and myself…
Zagreus wrote:
Shallowthing wrote:
It's an actual historical weapon rather than a modern reproduction, hence the gloves. Dated to about 1670


*Fap, fap, fap*

Zagreus wrote:
Not boring at all Shallow; you'd be amazed at what I find interesting, especially regarding history! Lawn'll be along to fap too in a bit I reckon.


I thought I’d start it in order to avoid clogging up the photos thread with pictures of swords. Mainly because I found some more images from my last couple of trips to the Royal Armouries and wanted to use them to illustrate a few previous points. This one, for example:
Shallowthing wrote:
In the library of the Royal Armouries, handling a Zweihänder.

Image

It's an actual historical weapon rather than a modern reproduction, hence the gloves. Dated to about 1670, if I recall correctly. At 6.5lb (3kg), it's incredibly light considering its sheer size - about 5' 7" (170cm).

Unfortunately, because of the angle of that image, it’s not really possible to appreciate the dimensions of it. For scale, here it is being held by more normally-sized people:

Image

Image

Details of the guard and the pommel:

Image

Image


Shallowthing wrote:
They split the seminar attendees (there were about fifty of us in all) into groups and took us "backstage" into the Armouries library, where they'd set out two tables of surviving historical weapons from assorted periods for us to handle after we'd all been given the white gloves so the moisture and oils in the skin doesn't fuck up the metal.

Image

The dude who looks like he’s come from central casting as an elderly museum curator come out of retirement to enthuse at us about swords is, in fact, an elderly museum curator come out of retirement to enthuse at us about swords. He was awesome.

Shallowthing wrote:
there were a couple of katanas and their attendant tantos from the same sort of period

Image


Shallowthing wrote:
an ornate eighteenth century gentleman's side-sword

Image

Image

Image


Shallowthing wrote:
a small curved cavalry sword that felt like an overgrown bread knife.

Image

Image


Shallowthing wrote:
There were also two examples of the human tendency to ruin perfectly good things in the name of fashion - an early sixteenth century poll axe which had had its shaft replaced in the Victorian period by someone who clearly didn't have a fucking clue what they were doing beyond creating an ornament and had its balance destroyed in the process

Image


Shallowthing wrote:
of most interest to me was a beautifully elegant fifteenth century longsword blade which had been refitted in the seventeenth century with a fashionable OTT basket hilt. Quite how you're supposed to sensibly use a weapon like that in one hand, especially since the counterbalancing long hilt and pommel had been removed, is beyond me...

Image

Image

Image



Zagreus wrote:
Whilst I'm more preoccupied with prehistory at the moment, I can totally see your fascination with actually handling the objects and learning how they've been adapted and altered. I've only over the last year or so got into the interpretation side of artefacts, so you saying that the balance on them has been thrown by alterations is interesting too. Carry on!

Image

In this image you can really see where the cutting edges of the blade stop and the tang – the part of the sword that would have been buried in the original, much longer hilt – begins. At some point a century or two after this weapon’s forging, the original cruciform hilt was removed and replaced with the much later one you can see here. It’s been changed from a hand-and-a-half weapon to a single-handed one, and the wielder’s grip has been dropped a good few inches lower as a result. This, of course, will put more power behind a single swing, but it makes the weapon much more blade-heavy than it would have been originally, making it much more difficult to recover from that initial swing – basic physics that put a lot of the wielder’s eggs into one basket. I don’t think that pommel is the original one either, and if it’s a much heavier later one designed to correct the new blade-heavy balance it hasn’t really worked. In fact, the new hilt assembly makes the whole weapon heavier that it would have been originally, while removing the option of holding it in two hands. If the owner of the time had a good reason for doing all this, one beyond “I want a trendy modern hilt on my century-old sword”, I don’t know what it was. Heh.

For reference, originally it would probably have looked rather more like this, from about 1400:

Image

Pretty much goes for the poll arm pictured above. The metalwork – the head, the bindings, and the rondel – are all original, but the current shaft was fitted sometime in the nineteenth century. It’s about the right length and weight, I reckon, and they even got the cross-section right (rounded for most of its length, but squaring off nearer the head) but the positioning of the rondel is weird. It’s too far away from the head, which – like the altered longsword – shifts the balance too far down. You could get an epic swing with it, sure, but it would take you all day to recover from it, by which time you’re dog meat. Poll arms could be used like massive axes, should the opportunity present itself, but mostly they were wielded more like a quarterstaff (albeit one with a hammer on the end).


Solaris wrote:
Shallowthing wrote:
As I understand it, a lot more effort went into making Japanese swords than their western counterparts because of the lower-quality ore they had to work with in that part of the world, and they counteracted this by going crazy with the forging process to work the imperfections out of the metal.

That said, the respective sword-making philosophies are completely different. Japanese swords in general and the katana in particular are designed to be devastatingly sharp slicing weapons, whereas western weapons were generally much more flexible, both in construction and usage. Plus there's all that mystical stuff about the katana being the soul of the samurai, while the western sword is a tool for making alive people into dead people first and a symbol of knightliness and chivalry second. Heh.

Is it a generalisation to say that western swords are heavier and used as much for knocking people over as cutting them to ribbons, and eastern weapons are more precision-oriented instruments?

This is an essay question I’ll come back to when I have a bit more time than just now. In short, yes, it’s a generalisation, and it’s also completely inaccurate. Heh.

_________________
Image


Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:00 am
Profile
Storm Trooper
Storm Trooper

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:59 pm
Posts: 10435
Post Re: The History Bores
Shallowthing wrote:
For scale, here it is being held by more normally-sized people:

Image



If obese is normal.


Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:30 am
Profile
Star Trooper
Star Trooper
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:46 am
Posts: 3373
Location: Kingdom of Loss
Post Re: The History Bores
But knights were fuckin massive then no?

_________________
Image

MALIBUMAN wrote:
Awesome tits for a 15 year old.


Moses The Prophet wrote:
You are facial hair?


Dreadful Doctor Dee wrote:
Terrorizer: As read by the Ayatollah


Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:18 am
Profile WWW
Climate Control
Climate Control
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:25 am
Posts: 6716
Post Re: The History Bores
Not really - people on average were way shorter back then due to life, diet etc.

_________________
Katherine Legge wrote:
Termoid wrote:
If you could be any other forum member apart from yourself who would you be and why?

You, because i have always wondered what it would feel like to get run-over by a bus.


Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:22 am
Profile
Space Ranger
Space Ranger
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:49 pm
Posts: 1320
Location: scratching peace symbols on your tombstone.
Post Re: The History Bores
She looks thrilled to beholding aloft such a piece.

_________________
Don't go in Sane; that's where they hide!

MorfoMundo wrote:
PepsiMax 750mL ad infinitum.


Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:14 pm
Profile YIM
Storm Trooper
Storm Trooper

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:44 pm
Posts: 15990
Post Re: The History Bores
The DCI is correct. On average (and I really am talking in terms of averages. I heard a report recently that the modern day inhabitants of Naples are shorter than their predecessors in Pompeii were. Heh), human beings - especially in the developed world - are larger now than they have ever been before. Henry VIII was a mere 6' 2" (we know this because the Armouries has no less than two of his personal suits of armour from The Field of the Cloth of Gold in 1520), and he was considered abnormally tall; Richard I was also over six feet tall back in the tweflth century, and he was thought of as almost a giant.

Anyway: Swords like that Zweihänder there were employed by mercenary footsoldiers known as Landsknechts, and were mainly used to disrupt massed pike formations. The swords are roughly the same size, if not larger, than the men who used them. But that's a century or two after the period of the classic "knight".

Have a look at this shot my friend got of this set of gothic armour from the 1490s, which is rather more in-period:

Image

Compare the length of the longsword at his side with the height of the man who would have wielded it.

Image

The blade alone is longer than his leg. However, don't forget: Western swords are nowhere near as heavy as Hollywood would have you believe, and knights were professional, full-time soldiers, as fit as a professional footballer and trained from boyhood in the use of their gear and weapons.

Just for the hell of it, here's a picture of me taking that picture of the longsword above. Heh.

Image

_________________
Image


Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:32 pm
Profile
Super Trooper
Super Trooper
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:13 pm
Posts: 5939
Location: Up North!
Post Re: The History Bores
Fuckin' Bal Sagoth.

_________________


Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:57 pm
Profile WWW
Storm Trooper
Storm Trooper

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:44 pm
Posts: 15990
Post Re: The History Bores
Byron turned up at a Return to the Sabbat gig I was at once, and he brought with him an ornamental sword for Martin Walkyier to use on stage. Unsurprisingly, it was bigger than Martin was. Hooray for armed thrash metal pixie-men.

_________________
Image


Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:59 pm
Profile
Super Trooper
Super Trooper
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:13 pm
Posts: 5939
Location: Up North!
Post Re: The History Bores
I'll admit I've not got any interest, so I'm not going to derail the thread, but I used to love seeing scary black metal warriors trying to swing a sword around in the woods. While it's dark. And sometimes snowing.

Image

_________________


Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:02 pm
Profile WWW
Climate Control
Climate Control
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:25 am
Posts: 6716
Post Re: The History Bores
Shallow: I remember that too. The twerp was weilding it in the moshpit and almost twatted the keyboardist from CoF with it!

_________________
Katherine Legge wrote:
Termoid wrote:
If you could be any other forum member apart from yourself who would you be and why?

You, because i have always wondered what it would feel like to get run-over by a bus.


Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:03 pm
Profile
Super Trooper
Super Trooper
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:23 pm
Posts: 5190
Post Re: The History Bores
Those are great photos Shallow - thanks for posting them, in particular the closeups - just great stuff!

Pretty damn cool that you got to do that - makes me quite envious.

I would have liked to spend a few hours picking the brain of that retired curator.


Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:42 pm
Profile
Super Trooper
Super Trooper
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:23 pm
Posts: 5190
Post Re: The History Bores
Im thinking that anyone armed with a zweihander up against anyone using a polearm of some sort is going to win every time. Presumably the polearm bearer takes an almighty swing and then has to bring his arms back to centre, no real ability to swing back the other direction given the onesided nature of the business end of a lot of polearms? Meanwhile the zweihander has cut him to ribbons on the backward swing? Unless it wasn't wielded that way? Looking at a picture of the Swiss Battle of Kappel on wiki shows zweihanders against polearms -

Thoughts Shallow?


Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:06 pm
Profile
Star Trooper
Star Trooper
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:13 pm
Posts: 2575
Location: Essex
Post Re: The History Bores
no interest in swords per se but love history and in particular the actual life back whenever - so thank you for the info about the wrongness of certain aspects of those weapons. i'm a nurse, one of the other nurses of our ward is doing a PhD in Arcahaeology and is always going off digging (his period is early Romano-British)...which for some reason i feel jealous about. quite why scraping in mud freezing yer tits off for 12 hrs is so attractive is a mystery...

_________________
Memorare debut album 'Philistine' out now http://blackwoodproductions.bigcartel.c ... igipack-cd
Image


Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:33 pm
Profile WWW
Storm Trooper
Storm Trooper
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:54 pm
Posts: 10908
Location: Hull
Post Re: The History Bores
guns > swords


Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:35 pm
Profile WWW
Darth Fucking Vader
Darth Fucking Vader

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 28491
Post Re: The History Bores
Termoid wrote:
guns > swords


Image

Great pictures, Shallow. I don't have quite the level of historical interest, but cool things look cool.


Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:20 pm
Profile
Storm Trooper
Storm Trooper
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:54 pm
Posts: 11256
Post Re: The History Bores
Richie H-R wrote:
I don't have quite the level of historical interest


History > Religion

_________________
http://sabaziusdoom.wordpress.com/

http://seabastard.bandcamp.com/

turdy wrote:
Great tits and slow as fuck doom are Cromwell's Raison d'être.


Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:32 pm
Profile
Darth Fucking Vader
Darth Fucking Vader

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:25 am
Posts: 28491
Post Re: The History Bores
Stop wasting time here and go and tell i2i that he's a nutter and asking him to provide sources to prove that all Jews control germany and shoot lasers out of their eyes isn't trolling.


Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:38 pm
Profile
Storm Trooper
Storm Trooper
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:54 pm
Posts: 11256
Post Re: The History Bores
Richie H-R wrote:
Stop wasting time here and go and tell i2i that he's a nutter and asking him to provide sources to prove that all Jews control germany and shoot lasers out of their eyes isn't trolling.


I'm really wishing I'd just banned him for not liking Iron Maiden now. The guy is a twat.

Shallowthing wrote:
modern day inhabitants of Naples are shorter than their predecessors in Pompeii were. Heh


Speaking of which...

Image

Image

I find the figures at Pompeii incredible. I did some research on the subject after I visited and it's such a fascinating site seeing as it was literally frozen in time. My mate George took this pic when he was there:

Image

Here's my ex Ruth within the boundaries of Pompeii with Vesuvius in the background; makes you realise how far away the volcano is, and how massive the eruption was.

Image

_________________
http://sabaziusdoom.wordpress.com/

http://seabastard.bandcamp.com/

turdy wrote:
Great tits and slow as fuck doom are Cromwell's Raison d'être.


Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:10 pm
Profile
Storm Trooper
Storm Trooper
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:54 pm
Posts: 11256
Post Re: The History Bores
Bollocks to it, I can't resist!

Pompeii swastikas...

Image

Image

Image

I'm being very restrained not posting pics of Sussex's medieval churches!!!

_________________
http://sabaziusdoom.wordpress.com/

http://seabastard.bandcamp.com/

turdy wrote:
Great tits and slow as fuck doom are Cromwell's Raison d'être.


Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:16 pm
Profile
Storm Trooper
Storm Trooper

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:44 pm
Posts: 15990
Post Re: The History Bores
Nope. We had this same discussion back in June last year. Page three of the Threads thread.

_________________
Image


Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:32 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 281 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 15  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.