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 Celebrity Cake eaters. 
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Space Ranger
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
Dealer In Facts wrote:
xBroskix wrote:
I know it's completely seperate subject, but it's similar to everyone having at NSBM bands for their views, but Bad Brains get a pass despite the views they have/had on gays.


Get out of the 80's!


Exactly. it is like Tony Wakeford from Sol Invictus still having to deal with the shit over the fact he was briefly in the National Front in the late seventies. Some people simply cannot accept that people have moved on, changed their views etc


Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:16 am
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Storm Trooper
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
JCC wrote:
That's irrelevant. My point was that old men having consenting relationships with adolescents is disagreeable, to a lesser degree, but even so the fact that he had some willing underage girlfriends doesn't undermine that he was an abuser in the slightest


I agree. I explained my point badly, I was trying to move away from Savile and suggest that is it totally the fault of some of the general men who got involved in consenting groupie scenes for example.

40 year old and a 15 year old I agree is predatory which ever way you look at it, but an immature 20 year old who has found fame and a 15 year old?

This is devil's advocate too, I'm not trying to say 21 year olds can fuck 14 year olds.

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Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:04 am
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Super Trooper
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
I heard on the news yesterday that Savile's estate has been frozen pending the expected claims for compensation. Now I'm not saying that all three hundred 'victims' are lying, but the phrase 'I'm Brian and so is my wife' did spring to mind.

And, I'm not altogether comfortable with the idea that this guy (paedo or not) is not alive to defend himself either. It's difficult enough to prove rape the day after, never mind forty years later... unless there was a witness?

What I don't get is that Savile allegedly would go to hospitals unannounced and the staff would supposedly direct him to (and presumably leave him alone with) the kids, is that really likely?

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Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:40 pm
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
One of the police comments on the matter was that the 300 people who claimed abuse were all saying the same thing, which led the police to believe the stories. I think it was in detail, rather than just lots of people going "me too!"

However, I do see your point and agree with it to an extent Mali. We do have to remember we are getting the edited highlights in the news, and the police would have a lot more to go on than they are releasing to the press. They'd have the shit sued out of them by Saville's family if it was too much hearsay. Makes you wonder quite how well known it was in that no one's defending him at all.

I read one interview with a girl at one of the hospitals that Saville visited, and she was saying she wasn't molested, but the nurses knew it went on, but couldn't say much due to the money he brought in and the powers that be ignored it. The nurse apparently told this girl just to keep quiet and pretend to be asleep so she got left alone.

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Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:45 pm
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
The whole 'butterfly affect' here is quite an interesting angle though. Some of the older 'willing' girls who went along consentingly with these famous people could well now be calling it abuse (which it is if they were under age, but you get the gist).

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Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:48 pm
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
Cromwell wrote:
The whole 'butterfly affect' here is quite an interesting angle though. Some of the older 'willing' girls who went along consentingly with these famous people could well now be calling it abuse (which it is if they were under age, but you get the gist).


Uh huh. Particularly if there might be some money in it...

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Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:16 pm
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Space Ranger
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
Mali wrote:
And, I'm not altogether comfortable with the idea that this guy (paedo or not) is not alive to defend himself either. It's difficult enough to prove rape the day after, never mind forty years later... unless there was a witness?



I have less sympathy for him having the chance to defend himself than the fact so many people clearly knew what was going on and did nothing. Remember when ITV were about the screen the documentary, even then the offical line was Savile was this programme was little more than tabloid smears

What I find most telling is that even after the documentary was aired his family's main complaint was that it was too soon after his death, and then the speed with which they dismantled his grave... I daresay there was an unspoken recognition of what Uncle Jimmy was up to, but this guy was lauded by the british public, was known for his charity work, was quick to sue, so it takes a lot to take that on.


Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:22 pm
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Darth Fucking Vader
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
Mali wrote:
I heard on the news yesterday that Savile's estate has been frozen pending the expected claims for compensation. Now I'm not saying that all three hundred 'victims' are lying, but the phrase 'I'm Brian and so is my wife' did spring to mind.

And, I'm not altogether comfortable with the idea that this guy (paedo or not) is not alive to defend himself either. It's difficult enough to prove rape the day after, never mind forty years later... unless there was a witness?

What I don't get is that Savile allegedly would go to hospitals unannounced and the staff would supposedly direct him to (and presumably leave him alone with) the kids, is that really likely?


No, not at all likely to a right thinking human being in this day and age. However, he was allowed to sleep in hospitals, allowed undisturbed access to children's wards, allowed to sleep and to have the keys to wards in fucking Broadmoor. It is "unbelievable" but yes, it did happen.

Frankly he doesn't need to be here to to defend himself, the evidence is overwhelming, from approximately 300 victims and who knows how many witnesses. This another of those threads where you come across as a clueless old reactionary, which as a shame, as I thought you were more open minded and intelligent than that.


Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:50 pm
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
Dreadful Dr Dee wrote:
No, not at all likely to a right thinking human being in this day and age. However, he was allowed to sleep in hospitals, allowed undisturbed access to children's wards, allowed to sleep and to have the keys to wards in fucking Broadmoor. It is "unbelievable" but yes, it did happen.


Well, that's just fucking ridiculous!

Quote:
Frankly he doesn't need to be here to to defend himself, the evidence is overwhelming, from approximately 300 victims and who knows how many witnesses. This another of those threads where you come across as a clueless old reactionary, which as a shame, as I thought you were more open minded and intelligent than that.


You seem to have misunderstood. I wasn't suggesting for a moment that JS had done nothing wrong. I was merely pointing out (as JC so helpfully chimed in) that rape is an enormously difficult allegation to PROVE even if you go straight to the police with the DNA still dripping off you, trying to make it stick 40 years down the line is pretty much impossible. Except that it probably won't be now, because now you could probably accuse JS of molesting a donkey with a huge dildo stuck on a broomstick and the public would believe it (ah the power of the press).
If JS was alive the papers would have to be an awful lot more circumspect about what they are printing since they would be in contempt of court by now, in fact he would be scott free because the papers would have ruined any chance of a fair trial.

All I'm saying is that, yes, it's good for the victims that their abuse was recognized, the part I'm not totally sold on is the bit about his estate being frozen pending compensation claims. The sad truth is that money breeds opportunism.

Oh and JC, I would appreciate it if you didn't infer that I'm a misogynist in future, I may well be a clueless old reactionary... but a misogynist I will never be.

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Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:15 pm
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Space Ranger
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
Exactly, Mali, the press can and have run riot on this because there is no consequence. Even the BBC have published stories based on nothing more than what a hospital porter claims he saw. If that is the BBC god only knows what thevtabloid press are reporting.


Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:38 pm
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
JCC wrote:
Blaming victims of abuse or accusing them of wanting money and fame is one of the biggest social justice problems we have in this country and arguably the most odious form of misogyny which goes on almost completely unchallenged. 5% of rape charges brought to court end in conviction in this country, the issue is not that victims are lying, exaggerating or capitalising, but that those disgusting misheld perceptions mean rapists evade justice every day, people like Jimmy Saville


It's a shame that lying does go on then, isn't it? You can't just take every abuse accusation at face value.

I was working with an ex-policeman recently who specialised in these cases (rape and abuse) and he was telling me one example of a girl who did exactly that, whereby she invented a whole story to get one of her teachers fired.

Also JCC, please remember that people here are possibly playing devil's advocate in order to explore the issue, so being rude to people you've talked to on here for years seems a bit ott, even if it did annoy you.

Do you really think Mali and I are accusing all 300 victims of wanting to get their 5 mins of fame in The Star?

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Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:44 pm
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Darth Fucking Vader
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
He bummed Maddy!


Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:46 pm
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
Bet he fixed it for those kids to kill Bulger too!

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Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:50 pm
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
Cromwell wrote:
JCC wrote:
Blaming victims of abuse or accusing them of wanting money and fame is one of the biggest social justice problems we have in this country and arguably the most odious form of misogyny which goes on almost completely unchallenged. 5% of rape charges brought to court end in conviction in this country, the issue is not that victims are lying, exaggerating or capitalising, but that those disgusting misheld perceptions mean rapists evade justice every day, people like Jimmy Saville


It's a shame that lying does go on then, isn't it? You can't just take every abuse accusation at face value.

I was working with an ex-policeman recently who specialised in these cases (rape and abuse) and he was telling me one example of a girl who did exactly that, whereby she invented a whole story to get one of her teachers fired.

Also JCC, please remember that people here are possibly playing devil's advocate in order to explore the issue, so being rude to people you've talked to on here for years seems a bit ott, even if it did annoy you.

Do you really think Mali and I are accusing all 300 victims of wanting to get their 5 mins of fame in The Star?


Whilst I think JCC did over react to Mali's post, there is validity in what he says and i hate to say it Crommie but you just proved his point. So the ex policeman told you about the one example, but what about all the others cases when it was legit?

As part of my discourse analysis studies i came across a report which looked at the media reporting ratio on rape cases vs false rape claims, the media focus overwhelmingly on the latter which gives the average reader the impression women lie about being raped. Whilst false claims do happen they are disproportionately over represented in the media


Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:51 pm
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Darth Fucking Vader
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
It's more important not to make false rape claims than almost any other crime. If someone is wrongly accused and they get off, then they're still the "guy who was accused of rape".


Last edited by robitusson on Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:53 pm
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Darth Fucking Vader
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
I think the identity of both victim and accused should be withheld for as long as possible to protect both, the latter if they are found guilty, should of course be revealed.


Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:54 pm
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
Kizaki Jessica wrote:
Whilst I think JCC did over react to Mali's post, there is validity in what he says and i hate to say it Crommie but you just proved his point. So the ex policeman told you about the one example, but what about all the others cases when it was legit?


You misunderstand, I was providing one example just to prove it does happen. I'm well aware JCC's point stands, and that in the vast majority of cases it is legit. I'm certainly not saying Saville was innocent here either. I've already said that my Dad vouched Saville was fucking under age girls, and he told me that over 15 years ago before any of this came out.

I was being defensive against the bombast from JCC and justifying another point, that was all.

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Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:01 pm
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Space Ranger
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
Nope, I understand, but the fact you mentioned the example is part of the over-represented perpetuation. The consequences are more insidious

Just as an example, Robit's post above talking about the harm of false rape claims focusses on the impact for the man wrongly accused not the fact that it means other rape claims might not be believed.

I know you and Robit could then argue i am taking your posts out of context, but that is the point of discourse analysis, to look at what is being said and what isn't.

EDIT and the selective bias at work that is often sub concious


Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:08 pm
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
We've all already acknowledged that rape is a difficult issue to prove and that most cases don't get prosecuted. Surely with a forum population such as this where we all know we are all bleeding left wing liberals we don't need to shout that point in a discussion. It goes as a given that we don't need to spell out the bleeding obvious and that some of us are going to argue a case we don't necessarily believe in order to examine all sides.

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Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:13 pm
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Post Re: Celebrity Cake eaters.
Cromwell wrote:
We've all already acknowledged that rape is a difficult issue to prove and that most cases don't get prosecuted. Surely with a forum population such as this where we all know we are all bleeding left wing liberals we don't need to shout that point in a discussion. It goes as a given that we don't need to spell out the bleeding obvious and that some of us are going to argue a case we don't necessarily believe in order to examine all sides.


Way to spoil a potential argument :cry:


Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:17 pm
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