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Lifer, Deather, Hesher, Whatever.
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
It's slightly more nuanced than you're making it out to be. In NY for example you don't have the Muslim ghetto problem you do in Europe. There are 800,000 Muslims in New York City but they all seem to be far more assimilated into mainstream everyday life as opposed to say Tower Hamlets in London where they appear to be far more marginalized and live more of an approximate lifestyle to the African American experience here. The latter facilitates a far greater risk of wavering toward extremist ideology be it gang land or extremist Islam.

I don't know why this is. A product of colonialism perhaps? Not making excuses, just saying. Call me a PC left wing cunt if you want, just my observation.

Any religious holy text can be used to justify violent rhetoric, this is not limited to Islam.


Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:02 pm
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Space Ranger
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
The Wretch wrote:
Of course, And we can certainly argue that the first crusade was motivated at least in part by the desire to restore dominance of the Roman Catholic church in the east. but it's an absurd idea that people still say "well, what about the crusades" when someone talks about Islamic terrorism in Europe, and are taken seriously.



Who actually says this?


Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:00 am
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Darth Fucking Vader
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
erm.........Barack Obama.


Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:13 am
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Space Ranger
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
robitusson wrote:
erm.........Barack Obama.


I searched on google and all I found is a rather cack handed attempt at being diplomatic towards the constituency that you'll need to get on side if you're ever going to kick ISIS into touch, really.


Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:09 pm
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Storm Trooper
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
Come on, I mean, you are talking about the Columbia and Harvard educated leader of the free world, not the tinfoil hat brigade or your average mewling leftist student.

It was inappropriate, lacking in context and foolhardy, and is hardly an example in masterful diplomacy. But then, when it comes to these sorts issues he isn't actually very tactful, hence his awkward handling of the recent racial tension in the US, where his pandering to the Black Lives Matter movement and jumping the gun on cases that hadn't even been investigated only served to further inflame the situation.

ChrisLiebing wrote:
Any religious holy text can be used to justify violent rhetoric, this is not limited to Islam.


How many religious texts are still taken so dangerously literally though? Those who fight for jihad and the caliphate are not some fringe breakaway sect, they are following the Quran, particularly the Median verses to the letter, and expressing their faith in a way most modern Christians, even among the evangelical community, would not even dream of.

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush"

"Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant"

"Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost for Allah is with you"

If they are following the prophet as the ultimate example of the embodiment of Allah's will, then they are essentially following a pirate, and a conqueror.

And where those who subscribe to this philosophy find insulated communities and the confusion of mass migration, they find opportunity.


Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:28 pm
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Lifer, Deather, Hesher, Whatever.
Lifer, Deather, Hesher, Whatever.

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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
The Wretch wrote:
Come on, I mean, you are talking about the Columbia and Harvard educated leader of the free world, not the tinfoil hat brigade or your average mewling leftist student.

It was inappropriate, lacking in context and foolhardy, and is hardly an example in masterful diplomacy. But then, when it comes to these sorts issues he isn't actually very tactful, hence his awkward handling of the recent racial tension in the US, where his pandering to the Black Lives Matter movement and jumping the gun on cases that hadn't even been investigated only served to further inflame the situation.

ChrisLiebing wrote:
Any religious holy text can be used to justify violent rhetoric, this is not limited to Islam.


How many religious texts are still taken so dangerously literally though? Those who fight for jihad and the caliphate are not some fringe breakaway sect, they are following the Quran, particularly the Median verses to the letter, and expressing their faith in a way most modern Christians, even among the evangelical community, would not even dream of.

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush"

"Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant"

"Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost for Allah is with you"

If they are following the prophet as the ultimate example of the embodiment of Allah's will, then they are essentially following a pirate, and a conqueror.

And where those who subscribe to this philosophy find insulated communities and the confusion of mass migration, they find opportunity.


Those quotes are location and time specific, meaning, without context they sound pretty brutal, but in context, they refer to particular battles being fought at the time. With 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, many of who are pretty devout, there would be far more carnage if they all subscribed to the same ideology that the extremists do.

And lest we forget, the biggest victim of extremist violence are Muslims themselves, 99% who just want to live their lives in peace.


Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:07 pm
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Storm Trooper
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
That's the whole point though - Do you imagine those who planned and executed the 23 attacks in the last month see those verses in historical context?

Even if the extremists are a minority, they are still a sizeable one with significant support who have the capacity to cause untold bloodshed.

The very fact that most victims of their violence are other muslims only highlights the danger of their ideology.

Aside from Isis and terror groups, there is still a violent and intolerant culture at the heart of Islam itself, regardless of the behaviour of individual Muslims. There are 15 muslim nations or regions in the world where stoning women to death for adultery or being raped is legal or accepted. There are 10 countries they still hold that the punishment for apostasy is death. There are also 10 countries where they execute people for being gay. And it's not like those laws have no popular support among the citizens of those countries anyway.

So even if the vast majority of that 1.6 million do not actively stone women, kill gays or commit terror attacks, many still subscribe to a religion that advocates that behaviour, creating an environment where attitudes of violent intolerance are fostered and encouraged.

So the fact that most victims of that aggression are other muslims is not an argument.

And at the end of the day none of this diminishes or excuses what happened in Brussels, or Paris, or any number of cities across the world, including in majority Muslim countries.

What I really object to is the fact that people still want to trot out the same "religion of peace" line every time there is a terror attack, when there is clearly still a barbaric and intolerant mentality that is a significant part of Islamic culture, or when they attempt to distance that terrorism from Islam completely, talking about the crusades, or colonialism (or even admittedly disastrous foreign policy) or Donald Trump as if any of that justifies their actions.


Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:41 pm
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Darth Fucking Vader
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
ChrisLiebing wrote:
Those quotes are location and time specific, meaning, without context they sound pretty brutal, but in context, they refer to particular battles being fought at the time.

The context argument is incredibly weasel-y. But even if it is all context, the main problem with Islam remains - which is that is has an inherently political element. On earth the law of God trumps (no pun intended) the law of man. The secular and the religious can't be divided in the way they can with Christianity for example.

The fact is that these jihadists do believe they are doing God's work on earth as Islam describes and for a reward in the hereafter. They tell us this all the time. It's only apologists who pretend it's bigotry, the crusades, global warming or Tintin or whatever else that causes it.

The Wretch wrote:

What I really object to is the fact that people still want to trot out the same "religion of peace" line every time there is a terror attack,

I don't think these people are lying when they say this but they are delusional.


Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:06 pm
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Super Trooper
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
The Wretch wrote:
pandering to the Black Lives Matter movement and jumping the gun on cases that hadn't even been investigated only served to further inflame the situation.


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Thu Mar 24, 2016 9:16 pm
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Storm Trooper
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
Really? Alex fucking Jones?

You don't think that in a time of racial tension, the US president saying things like "If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon" or presuming there was racial motivation and guilt on behalf of police officers before investigations have even taken place is grossly irresponsible?

What about his failure to condemn those using violent means and intimidation to silence those they don't agree with? They not only used these tactics at Trump rallies, but hounded Bernie Sanders at an event where they were actually represented.

In fact, Obama has legitimised them by meeting with them while offering close to zero criticism of their behaviour.

Black Lives Matter is founded on a falsehood, by those who openly support and take their cues from cop killers and terrorists like Assata Shakur. Even by the statistics of The Guardian, in 2015 there were twice as many whites as blacks killed by the hands of police officers, even though black crime is both proportionally to population size and in actual numbers much higher than that of whites.

Yet Obama can claim BLM and the rioters are "giving voice to a problem happening only in African-American communities"

That is inflaming racial tension, and refusing to be honest about the real issues in black communities.

If being honest about these sorts of issues puts people in the same category as that fucking buffon Jones, then the world really is fucked.


Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:07 am
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Super Trooper
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
I am only sad when gay disabled black Cambodian Muslim lesbians who like the new Ghostbusters trailer are killed. No one else's lives matter.


Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:11 am
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Darth Fucking Vader
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
The Wretch wrote:

That is inflaming racial tension, and refusing to be honest about the real issues in black communities.


Absolutely.

Did you see they protested white people eating brunch? :lol: Hey, how can we stop blacks getting themselves shot? I know! - make white people feel guilty about having eggs benedict with extra bacon next Saturday morning!! Fucking morons.


Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:58 am
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Space Ranger
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
The Wretch wrote:
Come on, I mean, you are talking about the Columbia and Harvard educated leader of the free world, not the tinfoil hat brigade or your average mewling leftist student.




Exactly. It was stupid, but western leaders are always given to those. Am I the only one who remembers Bush II? But then again, US foreign policy over the last forty years has given the Qutbist movement a far bigger boost than any Saudi cleric ever will.


Other than that, the main recruits for Al-Qaeda in the west are those that know the least about Islam. Low-level criminals, fuck-ups, the socially isolated and losers, on the whole. And the modern strains of international jihadism owe more to 20th century intellectual developments in the arab world than ancient texts at any rate.

And why is it that Christian countries like Russia, France and the UK actually send more ISIS recruits to Syraq than countries like Indonesia or the USA ever do? The Islamist movements in various countries are quite different in organisation and goals. Lumping them all together helps no-one.


Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:55 pm
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Space Ranger
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
The Wretch wrote:
How many religious texts are still taken so dangerously literally though? Those who fight for jihad and the caliphate are not some fringe breakaway sect, they are following the Quran, particularly the Median verses to the letter, *snip*




Any religious philosophy predated on textual "literalism" is essentially just picking and choosing the verses they want to use. For every religious text urging death to unbelievers, there's another one urging peace and unity. They essentially see it through the thin prism of their culture and pick and choose the verses that apply. And that is just as true for rednecks blowing up abortion clinics and Ulster Unionist nutjobs as it is for jihadis.

Abrahamic religious texts are inherently contradictory by nature, so any pretence at literalism is a nonsense. The Red Crescent worker, the Hezbollah operative and the Saudi cleric all say they are following the word of Allah to the letter. Who do we believe?


Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:28 pm
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Darth Fucking Vader
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
^ Right, the relativist position. The idea that because we can group some different ideas and movements together under a common name, such as religion, that they have some kind of equivalence. That the texts can only ever be interpreted through the prism of culture and they do not necessarily have a concrete meaning. The jihadis blow up civilians just like the Christians in America blow up abortion clinics. The Bible has passages about killing people, so does the Quran. etc. So we mustn't judge - context is everything - we shouldn't stand up for any one idea or principle.

Fine and good, if that's what people like. But what does everyone else do when this philosophy has edged out nearly all the others? - which is certainly the case now - what do we get? Trump. Pegida. Farage. Britain First. Marine Le Pen. etc. etc.

If we can't unconditionally say that political Islamism is bad, wrong and worse than our way of life - which it blatantly is - then just be prepared for the people who will.

edit:
Here's a story from today where a guy caught clearly defending religiously motivated murder claims he was "taken out of context".

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-gla ... t-35893123


Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:57 pm
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Space Ranger
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
I have literally no idea how you read what I wrote as an apology for jihadism at all. Nobody is preventing you from saying that political Islam is bad considering there's no shortage of talking heads saying exactly that. And even if you did, it wouldn't impede the rise of people like Le Pen, Trump, etc by an inch.

And they are selective. Like I said, all Abrahamic verses are inherently contradictory. If not all religious texts as a rule. So "literalism" as a guide is a nonsense. Especially since most of the modern jihadi movement take their inspiration from thinkers such as Said Qutb who were more obsessed with coming up with justifications for killing other muslims than anything else.
Is

It's just that it is a complex and multifaceted phenomenon. And lazy blanket statements help no-one at all.


Just that if we want to understand modern day jihadism, lumping Sufis, Ahmadis, Ismailis, Shias and normal Sunnis in with the people who blow up airport terminals and kick/stab people to death for having the wrong take on things is probably a stupid way of going about things.


If anything, looking from the perspective of the people in the west who go off and join ISIS, Hamas, etc it's a militarised version of western identity politics. With all the attendant carnage that brings.


Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:52 pm
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
The other day i had a bacon and sausage baguette on the way to work, when i got there the Muslims i work with decapitated me because the Quran told them so. Islam is so fucking violent.



Oh no i am still here so Islam can't be so bad can it?

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Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:43 pm
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
One of my FB friends (well, two as it's one of those couples 'joint profiles' which aren't creepy at all and totally don't smell of distrust) has announced plans to emigrate to Cyprus.

This comes days after posting a complaint about immigrants coming to the UK...

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Fri May 27, 2016 10:44 pm
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
oneleggedpunk wrote:
The other day i had a bacon and sausage baguette on the way to work, when i got there the Muslims i work with decapitated me because the Quran told them so. Islam is so fucking violent.



Oh no i am still here so Islam can't be so bad can it?


What sauce did you have in the baguette?

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Sat May 28, 2016 8:59 am
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Darth Fucking Vader
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Post Re: Facebook “Friends”
Everyone falling all over themselves on fb to express grief, disgust and solidarity about this shooting the last few days - all carefully not mentioning Islam. :D I see guns, the Christian right, religion in general, "toxic masculinity", America, repressed homosexuality, mental illness, Trump, etc. etc. etc. are all being blamed for this latest massacre.


Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:43 pm
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