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 Scottish Independence 

Yay or Nae?
Yes 50%  50%  [ 6 ]
No 50%  50%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 12

 Scottish Independence 
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Storm Trooper
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
I think we should buy a massive Jig Saw and cut off Scotland and fuck 'em off to the North Sea, and then nuke 'em and steal all the oil, it's the English way.

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Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:00 pm
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Opinionated Loudmouth. Perkele!
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
Again Im reading the entirely false idea that Westminster somehow subsidises Scotland with grants. Scotland puts a lot more in than it gets out and should be a very wealthy nation, its only the wilful mismanagement of its oil wealth by successive westminster governments that has meant that it doesnt have a back up fund of around 60-70 billion pounds from the last 30 years of production. The No campaign has tried to frighten and bully the Scots with bollocks about how it cant have the pound and how all the children and pensioners will starve, but Darling was forced to admit that was a lie just last week.

I have business interests in Scotland and a good many friends and associates there have done thier sums and while Scotland cant rely on its oil wealth forever, it is a complete fallacy that without it the country will fail. what about countries that dont produce oil, how do they survive? the same way Scotland will, through exports and so on. the idea that Scotland has nothing to offer the world beyond oil is as absurd as it is insulting to them.

One thing the No campaign has misjudged is the amount of ill feeling the current govt has generated in Scotland and just how little the scots enjoy being threatened, lied too and patronized. They have a chance to be rid of the tories forever and they'd be fools not to take it.


Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:12 pm
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
Arisen wrote:
Again Im reading the entirely false idea that Westminster somehow subsidises Scotland with grants. Scotland puts a lot more in than it gets out and should be a very wealthy nation, its only the wilful mismanagement of its oil wealth by successive westminster governments that has meant that it doesnt have a back up fund of around 60-70 billion pounds from the last 30 years of production. The No campaign has tried to frighten and bully the Scots with bollocks about how it cant have the pound and how all the children and pensioners will starve, but Darling was forced to admit that was a lie just last week.

I have business interests in Scotland and a good many friends and associates there have done thier sums and while Scotland cant rely on its oil wealth forever, it is a complete fallacy that without it the country will fail. what about countries that dont produce oil, how do they survive? the same way Scotland will, through exports and so on. the idea that Scotland has nothing to offer the world beyond oil is as absurd as it is insulting to them.

One thing the No campaign has misjudged is the amount of ill feeling the current govt has generated in Scotland and just how little the scots enjoy being threatened, lied too and patronized. They have a chance to be rid of the tories forever and they'd be fools not to take it.


That I cant argue with at all, i wish the north east could somehow cut itself off from those cunts as well.

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Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:25 pm
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Space Ranger
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
But they also have a declining birth rate (make up the difference with immigration) and an aging population(import more and more spending on public services and more people employed in the public sector. All of that has to be factored in. The inevitable transition to independence in the long term is not going to be painless.

Besides, as you have stated, the NS revenues don't add that much to UK or Scots tax intake so how he's(Salmond) gonna fund this Scandi-style SWF is going to be interesting.

The path towards making a larger percentage of their grid into renewables is a worrying sign.

Not to mention the treaty disputes, inevitable bickering over who gets what share of the debt, rewriting of treaties and the terms offered are going to take decades to fully work out. It took the Czech Republic and Slovakia decades to work out who got the gold. All that legal pollava could affect the decisions of a lot of companies on whether to invest in Scotland or not.


Overall, after a more indepth look at some figures and it seems both countries will survive the break more or less intact economically but figuring out a new flag design is gonna be a bitch.

Personally, I wish the NI referendum would swing by as fast as. Maybe we could persuade Putin to take it if he ever needs a naval base near the atlantic?


Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:32 pm
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Space Ranger
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
JCC wrote:
What developed country doesn't have a declining birth rate and ageing population?

Israel.

But how much richer? That welfare state Salmond wants to set up will cost billions and it's not going to be too much richer after independence anyway so this ultra cardle to grave welfare state is going to be far smaller than promised.

Declining birthrate coupled with rapidly aging population, too. Like I've said, independence isn't going to cost free.

And thanks for jamming in more humourless bitchy sniping in the end.


Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:00 pm
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Super Trooper
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
Dr Yail Bloor wrote:
Arisen wrote:
Again Im reading the entirely false idea that Westminster somehow subsidises Scotland with grants. Scotland puts a lot more in than it gets out and should be a very wealthy nation, its only the wilful mismanagement of its oil wealth by successive westminster governments that has meant that it doesnt have a back up fund of around 60-70 billion pounds from the last 30 years of production. The No campaign has tried to frighten and bully the Scots with bollocks about how it cant have the pound and how all the children and pensioners will starve, but Darling was forced to admit that was a lie just last week.

I have business interests in Scotland and a good many friends and associates there have done thier sums and while Scotland cant rely on its oil wealth forever, it is a complete fallacy that without it the country will fail. what about countries that dont produce oil, how do they survive? the same way Scotland will, through exports and so on. the idea that Scotland has nothing to offer the world beyond oil is as absurd as it is insulting to them.

One thing the No campaign has misjudged is the amount of ill feeling the current govt has generated in Scotland and just how little the scots enjoy being threatened, lied too and patronized. They have a chance to be rid of the tories forever and they'd be fools not to take it.


That I cant argue with at all, i wish the north east could somehow cut itself off from those cunts as well.


Wales, the North East, the Midlands and the South East feel much the same.

Pissing off the Scots and making them vote for independence is of benefit to the Tories and to their rich mates in the short term. As Clint has said above I dare day there is a deleberate element to the general shoddiness of the No campaign.


Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:46 pm
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
Stuffstuff wrote:

And thanks for jamming in more humourless bitchy sniping in the end.


He's only responding in kind to your initial twattery.


Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:47 pm
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
JCC wrote:
I'm not seeing your point about how much richer. If they are richer than the countries they are emulating, it shouldn't be difficult to afford emulating them



They aren't going to be. Even according to the charts referenced in the OCED reports

https://fullfact.org/factchecks/scotlan ... onomy-3239

They'll still be slightly poorer than Norway and Switzerland (not really a bad place to be) so completely emulating the welfare states that have had toreform them significantly and whose future looks uncertain in the face of changing a changing economic situation. If the richest countries in the world can't

Besides, the fact even the No campaign can't be bothered to argue a full impassioned case for the Union and can't even be bothered to stick up for it shows that no matter what happens on vote day, the Union is toast. I can't see it lasting another hundred years.

Ultimately, England, Wales would probably survive fairly fine being separate and if it takes a yes vote to trigger that, then good. That said, this whole "Independent Scotland as a victory for Social Democracy" one is a line of argument I simply can't swallow. Different economic climates mean having to cut and reform things at some point.

Myrddin wrote:

He's only responding in kind to your initial twattery.


Over a throwaway quip over NI? Jesus...


Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:12 pm
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
Stuffstuff wrote:
Over a throwaway quip over NI? Jesus...


Would be like a throwaway joke about Mohammed in Mecca . . .


Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:23 am
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
Zapp Brannigan wrote:
Stuffstuff wrote:
Over a throwaway quip over NI? Jesus...


Would be like a throwaway joke about Mohammed in Mecca . . .

the bingo hall? i though Muslims didnt gamble?

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Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:34 am
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
Cromwell wrote:
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:23 am
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
Ha, I like this. So Scotland wishes to emulate the Scandinavian style welfare state? More than a few hurdles there. Look at the cluster of countries like Scandinavia, Switzerland and Japan. They all have similarities that Scotland cannot emulate, not unless they plan to raise the cost of living and salaries in accordance. Plus there is the cultural shift involved, you can't just emulate a country and expect it to work. Grow up.

The best thing salmond could do is lower Scotland's corporate tax rate and try and encourage firms to relocate as a way of increasing tax revenue. He should also invest in bettering transport links and make either Edinburgh or Glasgow airport more business orientated rather than package holiday flights. That way companies would be more inclined to leave the "uk". Outside of that what else doeshe have? Oil revenues yes, but burdened by high unemployment and one of the worst health statistics of a developed nation that is increasing the burden on health services (btw free prescriptions is not the answer, you actually increase the burden on your healthcare services)

On the flip side, if countries like Montenegro can survive being independent then Scotland certainly can, but it would really benefit from a leader who has a vision beyond just being independent.


Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:39 am
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
Stuffstuff wrote:
Odd how they've labelled it an independence movement when they're desperate to keep the pound, want to keep a foreign monarch as their head of state and stay in the EU, with it's famed respect for the autonomy of small states.

I've wondered this. What sort of independence is Salmond pushing for? Just being able to call Scotland an independent country, it seems.

Yes yes, I know there's other economic things that come into play once Scotland is independent, should that happen, but it's impossible to base a campaign for independence around this. It's a vote as to whether Scotland is an independent nation-state, not a vote about how exactly money is spent. Voters are ultimately thinking about whether they want to call themselves British or Scottish (Scottish NOT British, that is). Voters aren't persuaded by arguments about economic this that and the other, it's whether you have a nationalist sentiment or not, surely that's what it ultimately comes down to. Do you think arguments about currency unions and so on were happening in India in 1946, or Ghana in 1959, or Kosovo in 2006, or South Sudan in 2010? Obviously the situation isn't quite the same but it's a vote about whether or not Scotland is an independent country and ultimately that's a question of nationalism.

The tone used in the media, and virtually anyone I've heard talking about it (including this thread) is nearly always England-centric. "If they want to go, let them". As if 'they' are already separate from 'us'. Aren't we all British for the moment? Or, even worse, "we should give them their independence if they want it." Give them independence? Beneficent England deigning to allow her little partner Scotland to leave, with England's permission. No wonder some people feel like there's still an element of colonialism.

Such scaremongering on all sides too, the worst example being the EU president saying it would be "virtually impossible" for Scotland to join the EU. What bollocks! What he means is "Now don't go giving those Catalonians any ideas. Please. Please."

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Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:15 pm
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
Indeed, the number of countries in Europe (if not the EU) could begin to rise significantly when you consider the regional feelings of so many European countries, if Scotland "go".

It's interesting that this is happening against the background of what could realistically be the beginning if Cold War 2 or WW3 with events in Ukraine and things on this continent being a little scary at the moment. I don't know if that will sway Scotland one way or another, Cardiff was perhaps an odd choice for the NATO summit tomorrow, I don't know what message Cunteron is trying to convey there- "look we're still united" or "we're not letting these bastards go, even if the others fuck off".


Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:31 pm
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
Labour have been led up the garden path on this one, for sure. Darling and Brown are so childishly pleased to be back in the limelight they don't seem to have noticed that they are yesterday's men with nothing constructive to offer.

I wonder if, in the event of a No vote, the Tories will be shameless enough to resurrect the little-used "...And Unionist Party" part of their name as propaganda for the '15 election. It wouldn't surprise me at all.


Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:37 pm
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
I voted no, if any part of the UK warrant a referendum then it's NI as it's on a separate island and Scotland is merely the top part of this island. So behave yourself you jock bastards.


Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:59 pm
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
Ed Blackadder wrote:
Stuffstuff wrote:
Odd how they've labelled it an independence movement when they're desperate to keep the pound, want to keep a foreign monarch as their head of state and stay in the EU, with it's famed respect for the autonomy of small states.

I've wondered this. What sort of independence is Salmond pushing for? Just being able to call Scotland an independent country, it seems.

Yes yes, I know there's other economic things that come into play once Scotland is independent, should that happen, but it's impossible to base a campaign for independence around this. It's a vote as to whether Scotland is an independent nation-state, not a vote about how exactly money is spent. Voters are ultimately thinking about whether they want to call themselves British or Scottish (Scottish NOT British, that is). Voters aren't persuaded by arguments about economic this that and the other, it's whether you have a nationalist sentiment or not, surely that's what it ultimately comes down to. Do you think arguments about currency unions and so on were happening in India in 1946, or Ghana in 1959, or Kosovo in 2006, or South Sudan in 2010? Obviously the situation isn't quite the same but it's a vote about whether or not Scotland is an independent country and ultimately that's a question of nationalism.

The tone used in the media, and virtually anyone I've heard talking about it (including this thread) is nearly always England-centric. "If they want to go, let them". As if 'they' are already separate from 'us'. Aren't we all British for the moment? Or, even worse, "we should give them their independence if they want it." Give them independence? Beneficent England deigning to allow her little partner Scotland to leave, with England's permission. No wonder some people feel like there's still an element of colonialism.

Such scaremongering on all sides too, the worst example being the EU president saying it would be "virtually impossible" for Scotland to join the EU. What bollocks! What he means is "Now don't go giving those Catalonians any ideas. Please. Please."


Yes going by some people you would think Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales belonged to England. Not how I've ever looked upon it. As you say I see us all as British.

A good majority of the yes vote is based on watching Braveheart.


Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:23 pm
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
Ed Blackadder wrote:



The tone used in the media, and virtually anyone I've heard talking about it (including this thread) is nearly always England-centric. "If they want to go, let them". As if 'they' are already separate from 'us'. Aren't we all British for the moment? Or, even worse, "we should give them their independence if they want it." Give them independence? Beneficent England deigning to allow her little partner Scotland to leave, with England's permission. No wonder some people feel like there's still an element of colonialism.



Colonialism defines the Union. Always has done.

England was always the bigger partner in the Union, so when foreigners mistakenly say England for Britain, they're essentially telling the truth. Although the Welsh, Scottish and Irish have made invaluble contributions to Britain and British culture, truth is it's always been led by and for the benefit of English elites and always will do. The overcentralised nature of the British state just compounds this.

All states made out of a jumble of other nations always have one dominant state lording it over the others. Yugoslavia, especially in its early days under it's royal family was always viewed as an extension of the Kingdom of Serbia, the Soviet Union was essentially the Tsarist empire under a red banner and Spain has had Castillan been the central power.

If they (and yes, they) really want to be considered anything more than a adjunct to England, then they'll have to strike out on their own. The Welsh too. And especially NI.

The Union has been in near terminal decline ever since 1922. Let's get to the debating tables and finish it off cleanly.


Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:00 pm
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
Cromwell wrote:
Orkney Islands for me. This is my new home...

Image


Acoustically congruent.


Somewhat on the line of the above couple of posts, I'm wondering what the overall feel in England/Wales is? What does the populace at large think? Is the government putting up a fight over this or are they playing fair, or possibly just appearing to play fair? Do people have an us and them mentality? How long has there been a real push for independence from Scotland?

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Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:19 am
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Post Re: Scottish Independence
I think the "real push" has only been very recent- basically the run up campaign, or at least that's my perception as someone living in London who has taken very little notice until the past few weeks.

I think that the vast majority of Welsh and English people want Scotland to stay, I think the Protestants in Northern Ireland will want it to remain and the Catholics for it to "go". The first few sets of results are in and they are all "no", one was only by a fraction of a percent but the others have been more substantial. No one thought the polls would get anywhere near as close as they have and it has been a pleasure to watch Westminster politicians shit themselves and panic over this, they have been arrogant, complacent and distant the whole time until a week or so ago. It's exposed them as the out of touch fools they are, the "No" campaign has been alternately half arsed or malicious scare mongering. The BBC's reporting has been shamefully partisan.

It does seem that the Yes campaign has been decidedly nasty too, with people afraid to voice the fact that they were voting No. Interestingly I saw exactly the same thing happen in Wales in 1997 when we had the referendum on the Welsh Assembly, albeit on a much smaller scale and less extreme.

I want Scotland to stay, simply because they tend to vote Labour which helps keep the Tories out, they are also far more likely to vote for us to stay in Europe if the fucking Tories get back in and we have a referendum on our future within the EU, which anyone in their right mind knos is the best thing for the UK.

There is a "them and us" between the Scottish and English but the real antipathy is towards the rich, posh arseholes, predominanly from South East England, who essentially run the government and the financial/banking system in their own interests. They (and to some extent ordinary people from the region) still appear to be under the impression that we have an empire (wirth speaking of, not just a few islands here and there, most of which are unpopualted) and that we meaning "they" are still some sort of super power. Areas outside of the South East are largely ignored, it's not just Scotland and Wales, it's the whole of the north of England, the Midlands and the South East.

I think the Nos will get it but by no more than 55% and possibly a tiny margin, all this upheaval has done a lot of good, shitting up the wankers that rule us.


Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:15 am
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