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Scottish Independence
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Author:  doomovertheworld [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

The yes campaign have just conceded defeat. Currently it is looking at a final score of 54% No vs 46% Yes

Author:  WATP [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

Myrddin wrote:



I want Scotland to stay, simply because they tend to vote Labour which helps keep the Tories out, they are also far more likely to vote for us to stay in Europe if the fucking Tories get back in and we have a referendum on our future within the EU, which anyone in their right mind knos is the best thing for the UK.

There is a "them and us" between the Scottish and English but the real antipathy is towards the rich, posh arseholes, predominanly from South East England, who essentially run the government and the financial/banking system in their own interests. They (and to some extent ordinary people from the region) still appear to be under the impression that we have an empire (wirth speaking of, not just a few islands here and there, most of which are unpopualted) and that we meaning "they" are still some sort of super power. Areas outside of the South East are largely ignored, it's not just Scotland and Wales, it's the whole of the north of England, the Midlands and the South East.



Glad we are still in the UK.

Totally agree with your "them and us" viewpoint.

Without scotland in the UK the chances of a Labour government back in charge would be slim.

Author:  Cosmic Equilibrium [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

Myrddin wrote:
There is a "them and us" between the Scottish and English but the real antipathy is towards the rich, posh arseholes, predominanly from South East England, who essentially run the government and the financial/banking system in their own interests. They (and to some extent ordinary people from the region) still appear to be under the impression that we have an empire (wirth speaking of, not just a few islands here and there, most of which are unpopualted) and that we meaning "they" are still some sort of super power. Areas outside of the South East are largely ignored, it's not just Scotland and Wales, it's the whole of the north of England, the Midlands and the South East.

I think the Nos will get it but by no more than 55% and possibly a tiny margin, all this upheaval has done a lot of good, shitting up the wankers that rule us.


This is a good point. I think people sometimes underestimate the after-effects on the establishment of having an empire that covered a quarter of the world's surface and then seeing that empire turn into dust in their hands in less than 30 years. Much of the British establishment in 1950 assumed that the Empire wouldn't totally fall to bits until near the end of the 20th Century. By 1970 it was pretty much gone. That shock to the system was quite profound [and in some quarters produced an extreme over-reaction that the UK was no good at anything anymore]. It was certainly one of the things that deeply influenced Margaret Thatcher's thinking and attitudes during her time in power.

The key thing was that the end of Empire can't be ascribed to being conquered by another nation, civil war, or revolutionary uprising. It was just something that... happened. After Suez more and more colonies gained independence, and the whole imperial project just slowly atomised. There was no obvious single event to blame for it, just a gradual unravelling, and that's hard to process if you were an imperialist at the time.

Most people in the UK are now used to just being a nation in Northern Europe and not one that rules vast swathes of the globe. However in the political establishment there are some groups of people who are very attached to the old ideas and ways and find them very hard to let go. World power and prestige is a very addictive drug.

The other thing to consider is that the UK by the standards of most world states is very very old. It's essentially existed as an entity since 1707 with no invasions, revolutions or real, game-changing civil uprisings [apart from when Ireland left in 1922, and the Troubles in NI which pretty much were a civil war]. In comparison, Germany has only existed since 1949. Russia since 1991. Most states in Western Europe since the end of WW2 when they got their democracy back. Modern Spain has only existed since Franco died. Hence these countries have far more modern democratic set-ups. Germany has a strong federalist system and a much more effective one than we do, precisely because after 1945 the entire country had to start from a clean slate.

Look at the UK parliament building - cutting edge for the 19th century but not for now. I walk through Whitehall sometimes and to me it still feels like the seat of government of an empire, a huge world-wide domain - but there is no empire for it to rule any more.

Most of the UK outside of London/SE just regards Westminster as a relic, one that doesn't want to adapt or change, and which likes centralising far too much power to itself in the last few decades [probably this centralisation was a reaction to losing the Empire, therefore compensating by taking as much domestic power as possible onboard]. However, now Scotland is going to get some form of devo-max [if not then there will probably be a second referendum 15 years down the line and they will leave then], and once one part of the UK gets devo-max, others will want to follow. Wales is asking for more powers already. As for England, an English Parliament is too unwieldy - England is just too big and diverse to govern as one entity - so the obvious answer is for more regional devolution. Hopefully the English regions will start seriously pushing for this now.

Author:  Cromwell [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

The 40% should be rounded up and left on an island.

"See how you cope without Britain now!"

Author:  Clint Ruin [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

A sizeable enough minority voted for it, and may turn into a majority if Westminster decides to carry on behaving like Westminster (i.e., renege on its promises). The Yessers shouldn't feel too down, but they should watch like a fucking hawk any attempts to sweep this under the carpet, condescending attempts by columnists to dismiss it as a fleeting tantrum, and so on.

Author:  Solaris [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

Adam Boulton was as hilarious/pathetic as usual yesterday, with a puss on him like a smacked baby. Emblematic of the general media attitude to the whole affair, really.

Author:  Matsui [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

I love all this talk of devolving power to the regions. It was done in the past and most of them started to fail on performance metrics. Politics is the same as business, the endless cycle of centralisation/decentralisation. Any failure on a decentralised region is used as an excuse to centralise, then when central ignores the region the whole arguement starts again

If Scotland had gone independent then sooner or later we'd be hearing complaints that Edinburgh was ignoring the regions.

Author:  Myrddin [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

Kizaki Jessica wrote:
I love all this talk of devolving power to the regions. It was done in the past and most of them started to fail on performance metrics. Politics is the same as business, the endless cycle of centralisation/decentralisation. Any failure on a decentralised region is used as an excuse to centralise, then when central ignores the region the whole arguement starts again

If Scotland had gone independent then sooner or later we'd be hearing complaints that Edinburgh was ignoring the regions.


When was this?

Author:  Matsui [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

Myrddin wrote:
Kizaki Jessica wrote:
I love all this talk of devolving power to the regions. It was done in the past and most of them started to fail on performance metrics. Politics is the same as business, the endless cycle of centralisation/decentralisation. Any failure on a decentralised region is used as an excuse to centralise, then when central ignores the region the whole arguement starts again

If Scotland had gone independent then sooner or later we'd be hearing complaints that Edinburgh was ignoring the regions.


When was this?


Late eighties/nineties if i remember correctly from my highly exciting studies on local government.

Thatcher employed the carrot and stick approach: give them "power" but at the same time apply performance metrics.

Author:  Myrddin [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

How? By giving additional power to councils? They are all obviously too small to function like states.

Author:  Duckstyle [ Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

Image


Thanks for the views on this. Very interesting.

Author:  Triggmartyr [ Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

Image

Author:  oneleggedpunk [ Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

Kizaki Jessica wrote:
Myrddin wrote:
Kizaki Jessica wrote:
I love all this talk of devolving power to the regions. It was done in the past and most of them started to fail on performance metrics. Politics is the same as business, the endless cycle of centralisation/decentralisation. Any failure on a decentralised region is used as an excuse to centralise, then when central ignores the region the whole arguement starts again

If Scotland had gone independent then sooner or later we'd be hearing complaints that Edinburgh was ignoring the regions.


When was this?


Late eighties/nineties if i remember correctly from my highly exciting studies on local government.

Thatcher employed the carrot and stick approach: give them "power" but at the same time apply performance metrics.


The cunt had already taken power away from local government in the early 80's and made them introduce competitive tendering. It wasn't so much carrot and stick it was more lube or sandpaper, she was going to fuck 'em but one was a bit more pleasant than the other.

Author:  Stuffstuff [ Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

What Kiz put out sounds less like genuine handing over of regions to decide their own affairs and more like handing it over to a bunch of mates in local government.

True devolution can never be handed down, it can be only be won from below.



Besides, with all this talk of devolution, they're acting as if Salmond's already won. This no vote was a Prryhic victory for the Unionists.

Author:  Stuffstuff [ Fri May 08, 2015 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

Election results for 2015 Scotland: 56 of 59 seats. A clean sweep.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015 ... d-32635871

They're gone. So long Scottish people, and thanks for all the Irn-Bru.

I just got my passport renewed, too. Under the name of a country that won't exist in thirty years.

Author:  oneleggedpunk [ Fri May 08, 2015 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

The SNP Murdoch's left hand, now fuck off scotland and never come back.

Author:  Myrddin [ Fri May 08, 2015 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

Goodbye Scotchland, thanks for leaving us with the Tories you massive cunts.*


* I would have done the same thing and have been thinking about moving there since the referendum fallout.

Author:  Stuffstuff [ Sat May 09, 2015 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Scottish Independence

Oh Jim Murphy. Proof positive that pride comes before a fall:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... urphy-poll

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