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 Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" thread 
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Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
Shallowthing wrote:
I agree with all of this. The classic Maiden line-up with bonus Janick, and the best they can manage wavers between "bland" and "offensively bollocks". What's wrong? Why aren't they amazing?


Utter cack... am sure these debates have raged on here for years and everyone's got their default position, but Brave New World, AMOLAD and Final Frontier are hardly bland or offensively bollocks. Dance of Death suffers from a woefully Tap'y title track, but even then there's a slew of tracks on those 4 albums that successful power metal bands would slaughter their daughters to have written. Don't pretend Maiden didn't write shit songs before the reformation and don't pretend tracks like Ghost of the Navigator, Dream of Mirrors, ...Silent Planet, fuck it, most tracks on BNW, Rainmaker, New Frontier, Paschendale, fuck it, most tracks onf DOD, These Colours Don't Run, ...1000 Suns.... Pilgrim.... fuck it, most tracks on AMOLAD, Isle of Avalon, Starblind, Talisman, Man Who Would Be King... FUCK IT, MOST tracks on Frontier too don't rip out the throat of a million wannabe powermetal kunt heros and stomp all over them. Yes, the guitar tone could be heavier, that's been the same argument since Harris started producing, but don't give the lame arsed crap that their songwriting is suddenly flaccid and they're phoning it in when their last 2 albums stand up with any of their others


Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:36 pm
Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
Ps, I'm not a fan of Janick in the slightest, BTW. He's the 5th best guitarist, and 5th best songwriter in the band, but who gives a fuck. The rest of them do enough good stuff that if they want to have their 'funny mate' along with them for a laugh, if he chips in a riff, phrase or solo or a good bit of showmanship along the way, then what the fuck


Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:38 pm
Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
But they don't have to be as good, but it's still good in its own right and better than most of the alternatives... Final Frontier is still a better album than the latest Bullet for my Valentine one, it's better than the last Priest album (OK, not hard), better than the last Manowar, Hammerfall, Rhapsody, Kamelot, Trivium etc etc

They wrote Powerslave, 7th Son, Somewhere in Time in their 20's, they're now in their 50's. That they're still going at all, topping the charts, winning album of the year awards, selling out headline shows... fair play

I think what wound me up above is the insistence its lazy and cynical and phoned in. No. I think when they reformed they would have snapped your hand off if you'd have offered them what was to come. The reformation was one last hurrah, and a bit of fun while restoring their reputation.

Having watched Flight 666 it just reaffirmed, they do it for the love. They could be off flying planes, sitting on beaches, playing golf, running football teams, but they love playing a good old bit of rock and metal. If they were phoning it in, they wouldn't be doing 11 minute long epics and releasing albums with only 1 song shorter than 5 minutes.

And they have enough ability, quality and class to pull songs out of the bag that do stand alongside the 'classics' in a set list. And they're also well aware (hence the Somewhere Back on Tour thing) that people want the classics too - or was that just a cynical thing too?

Do they have the burning hunger and desire to be the best anymore? No. Because they achieved that from 82 - 88. 6 years at the absolute top of the tree. That hunger's what's "missing", I grant you (though it's not gone entirely, particularly on BNW and AMOLAD) but do you begrudge them putting out 4 fist albums in their 50's and doing it til their arms fall off or they die on stage cos that's what they want to do?


Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:22 pm
Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
Quite enjoyed that ^ and when DOD first came out, I never thought I'd be defending 'reformation' Maiden at any point, but the more you listen to them, yeh, they're a bit 'easy listening' in places, but there's some very good songs on the last 4 albums - better success ratio than the No Prayer/Fear of, and the Blaze albums...

(re.the discussion) it's a fair compromise, one man's slapper is another man's nympho and all that...

apologies for missing said "epic" thread and therefore not preknowing your opinion (though if i had been signed up and read it at the time I doubt I would have remembered your opinion anyway tbf...)


Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:21 pm
Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
oops...


Last edited by XIII on Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:42 pm
Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
just one more question though... at this stage in their career, just who should they be writing for... people who liked the earlier stuff to try and get them back on board, people who never liked them...? cos if they did that, that'd be bollocks and clearly false. they write for themselves first and foremost with their fanbase in mind.

You say it's lacking musical ambition, but since BNW they've explored the 60's and 70's prog influences that Smith and Harris have always had in them, they've opened up to different styles of song... yes, there's some of the same chord sequences and rhythms as earlier stuff, but, now, see Motorhead (and i don't mean to offend anyone into the 'head here as they're a proper institution and i have no beef with them), to me that's lacking musical ambition in spades compared to Maiden.....

sorry, that was supposed to be a quickie.... didn't know my own stamina


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Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
Green has made pretty much all my points for me. Good man.

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Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
XIII wrote:
Motorhead (and i don't mean to offend anyone into the 'head here as they're a proper institution and i have no beef with them), to me that's lacking musical ambition in spades compared to Maiden.....


Except, their musical ambition is to play heavy rock n roll, and play what they enjoy. And they do it better than anyone else. So they are living up to their own ambitions. Some bands do one thing better than everyone else (Motorhead, Bolt Thrower, Crowbar, Necrophagia etc) and enjoy it, and expecting them to progress for the sake of it is stupid (I know thats not what you are saying) and this attitude of "they should be doing such and such" really gets on my tits. They should be doing what they like, and doing it as best they can. In this regard Both Motorhead and Maiden are living up to their ambitions, and expecting them to change, or have the same impact as they did 30 years ago is wrong, and to me the quality of the material is still uniformly good.

I know thats not what Green and Shallow are getting at with Maiden either, they don't feel the material itself is up to par, and thats fair enough because thats personal taste, but there is too much passion and skill there to label them as middle of the road or lacking in ambition, its plain to see they are doing exactly what they want, and even if you don't think they are the band they used to be there is no way anyone can discount everything they have done the last 10 - 20 years, there is no way you can say they haven't produced some very good songs.

Oh, and -

Sir William Geoffrey Steer. If he doesn't deserve a place in this thread, then no one does.

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Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
bill steer...aye

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Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
wretched_metal wrote:
I know thats not what Green and Shallow are getting at with Maiden either, they don't feel the material itself is up to par, and thats fair enough because thats personal taste, but there is too much passion and skill there to label them as middle of the road or lacking in ambition, its plain to see they are doing exactly what they want, and even if you don't think they are the band they used to be there is no way anyone can discount everything they have done the last 10 - 20 years, there is no way you can say they haven't produced some very good songs


Maiden could have produced a great album or two this decade if they worked with a producer like Birch that would keep them in line. Caveman doesn't do that. he is just a hired gun. He isn't going to sit in the studio and point out the very obvious fact that songs like Blood Brothers are repetitive and overstay their welcome. 'Brave New World' had the potential to be excellent i think, but it falls desperately short, and it's mostly due to the lack of editing and poor quality production. Nicko drums his ass off on the 00's albums and it sounds like he is banging on pots and pans. The hobo that plays on ice cream containers in the heart of Melbourne's CBD sounds more powerful than Nicko on any of those albums, and he can't drum for shit.

Maiden just need an outsider to tell them that songs could be improved, or that a rough mix of an album is hardly suitable for commerical release. Maiden's lack of attention to detail in the studio is unfortunately reflected in their songwriting to me. I can hear the lazyness, and i don't like it.

Metallica are half assed in a similar way nowadays, but i have no emotional investment in them so it doesn't really bother me like it does with Maiden.

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Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
Green Machine wrote:
idea of prog coming through in the music confuses me, I think it's just people associating long songs and full album concepts with prog. Aside from that, what's 'prog' about it? I take prog to mean rock crossed over with classical and jazz stylings, played by posh people :lol:


the prog influence is mostly laughable anyway. I remember hearing the intro to Brave New World and thinking it was a song from the mid 70's. if that tickles your fancy, great, but to me it's just cliched and dull.

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Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
The sound is not ideal alright, and I'm not a huge fan of Shirley in general, but that doesn't take from the fact that they have made some corking tunes. I don't agree on Blood Brothers though, I find it quite stirring, especially live.

I wish Birch would come out of retirement in general, he is simply one of the best producers and engineers of all time.


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Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
wretched_metal wrote:
The sound is not ideal alright, and I'm not a huge fan of Shirley in general, but that doesn't take from the fact that they have made some corking tunes. I don't agree on Blood Brothers though, I find it quite stirring, especially live.


i think it has all the hallmarks of a classic metal epic, but it's too long imo. taste is taste i guess. it's better than Manowar's version though ;)

wretched_metal wrote:
I wish Birch would come out of retirement in general, he is simply one of the best producers and engineers of all time.


yeah, but he is probably too busy counting money in a castle somewhere in rural England that he purchased off a cash strapped aristocrat ;)

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Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
wretched_metal wrote:
I don't agree on Blood Brothers though, I find it quite stirring, especially live.



EXACTLY this!

This song is easily as good as anything they have previously done.


Has anyone mentioned this man?

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Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
i rate the ox as the superior musician in the who, pete just doesnt cut it as an awsome geet player

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Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
hostilesteve wrote:
i rate the ox as the superior musician in the who, pete just doesnt cut it as an awsome geet player


I kind of agree with you. Entwhistle is obviously the virtuoso of the group, but obviously Townsend is a great songwriter and has a very recognisable style (Moon for that matter was very recognisable). As a lead guitarist he was only passable, but you don't really listen to the Who for strictly the musicianship do you?

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Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
i only listen to the who who entwhistle, nothing more, i cannot stand the bnd as a whole. well maybe a few tracks, daltry is a great singer and very gifted lyrically, but townsend and his mod rock approach really greats me, moon the loon is just that, i dont actually think any of his tracks where intentional tbh.

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Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
Satellite_Radio wrote:
Maiden could have produced a great album or two this decade if they worked with a producer like Birch that would keep them in line. Caveman doesn't do that. he is just a hired gun. He isn't going to sit in the studio and point out the very obvious fact that songs like Blood Brothers are repetitive and overstay their welcome. 'Brave New World' had the potential to be excellent i think, but it falls desperately short, and it's mostly due to the lack of editing and poor quality production. Nicko drums his ass off on the 00's albums and it sounds like he is banging on pots and pans. The hobo that plays on ice cream containers in the heart of Melbourne's CBD sounds more powerful than Nicko on any of those albums, and he can't drum for shit.

Maiden just need an outsider to tell them that songs could be improved, or that a rough mix of an album is hardly suitable for commerical release. Maiden's lack of attention to detail in the studio is unfortunately reflected in their songwriting to me. I can hear the lazyness, and i don't like it.

Metallica are half assed in a similar way nowadays, but i have no emotional investment in them so it doesn't really bother me like it does with Maiden.

Yes, all of the above. Also, I'm reasonably certain more than one of their post-reunion songs could have been saved if there was someone in the production booth with the strength of will to say "WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT? GET RID OF IT!" when Big Gay Chorus Disease really became terminal on Dance of Death.

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Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
hostilesteve wrote:
i only listen to the who who entwhistle, nothing more, i cannot stand the bnd as a whole. well maybe a few tracks, daltry is a great singer and very gifted lyrically, but townsend and his mod rock approach really greats me, moon the loon is just that, i dont actually think any of his tracks where intentional tbh.


I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree here steve.

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Post Re: Best guitarists AKA- The "I'm right, you're an idiot" th
aye, no bother.

how do you rate paul gilbert?

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