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 Losing fists 
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Storm Trooper
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Post Losing fists
Just listened to Heartwork, and in the 90's (despite what Was would say) it was a no brainer 5 fister. One of the top albums in the Tez albums of the 90's list and I loved it as a 16 year old. It had the melody I liked, but also mixed with a different type of heaviness to the type Pantera etc had, that of old school (underground) metal.

It was dark, heavy and just seemed a cut above a lot of what else was out there (particularly in the UK - we didn't get to hear much from Europe back then)

Fast forward to today and my first listen to it for years, I have to admit, and it seems quite middle of the road and restrained, dare I say it conservative (even though it was innovative at the time). I can even sort of see where Was is coming from, though I do disagree, it's definitely not shit, but has much more of a 4 fist feel to it.

There are thousands of bands around influenced either directly or indirectly by it, and a lot of them the more popular mainstream acts, but it doesn't sound heavy any more because of where metal, especially if you take into account the "heaviness" mainstream metal, has gone.

Anyway, the point of this very Statto-themed thread is what are the albums that have lost fists over the years, either due to context, or other reasons? And if so, what are those reasons, and were they wrong to be seen 5 fist records in the first place as a 5 fister will stand the test of time? (or will it?)

NO, THIS IS NOT AN OVER-RATED ALBUMS THREAD!


Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:45 am
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Darth Fucking Vader
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Post Re: Losing fists
My fistings are always correct. That's why the "strong" and .5 thing is such bollocks. :evil: Because the more specific you get the more prone it is to change.

"Hmmm, last month I thought ...And Justice For All was a strong 3.5 - now I'm more inclined to give it a low 4....or maybe even a straight 4" Arse!


Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:13 pm
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Post Re: Losing fists
Powersteev wrote:
Anyway, the point of this very Statto-themed thread


Statto themed thread of late you mean. I generally start discussions about albums, or scene trends, or attempt to get a little revisionist or whatever. It's just that we have had zero to talk about on this board lately, so i just wanted to kickstart discussion, and it seemd to have worked!! :D

Powersteev wrote:
is what are the albums that have lost fists over the years, either due to context, or other reasons? And if so, what are those reasons, and were they wrong to be seen 5 fist records in the first place as a 5 fister will stand the test of time? (or will it?)


Albums that don't seem like 5 fists, or at least high rating, albums now because of the following reasons usually:

1)The artist or band in question have since improved or refined their style, or changed their style and released more satisfactory music on the whole. So naturally the older releases can seem a little pale in comparison

2)An influential album can lose its appeal after being imitated so much. Occasionally it's the result of younger bands/artists taking their ideas further, but usually it's just because the sound/style becomes ubiquitous and therefore loses some of its charm.

3)It was never really that good, but was the right album at the right time and therefore left a huge impression in its day.

To be more specific:

Amorphis 'Tales From The Thousand Lakes'. I know you will disagree with me on this steev, but this album, as good as it is, has a slightly two dimensional quality to it that just doesn't grab me as much as it did then. I also feel the band kind of moved on a little, even if they never found a style quite as definitive as this again. I'd still rate it highly, but it's not 5 fists.

COF 'Principle Of Evil Made Flesh': again, this follows rule number 1. COF improved over time, and this album, in retrospect, while impressive, was just a great starting point.

Pantera 'Vulgar Display Of Power': Rule no.2. The sound/style just got old after a while, and after hearing so many imitators, the originals just don't stand up as well. I'd still give it a strong 4 though.

Pre-Icon era Paradise Lost: I'd say musically it follows all three rules, albeit to varying degrees. I'd say all 3 rules apply to 'Gothic'. But since i never heard these albums in their time, i can only just guess. i didn't get into P.L until 'Draconian Times', so i was a little late.

But i will say that Icon and Draconian Times sounded a little dull after a while, once Gregor's clean and lead tone was _everywhere_ by the late 90's, but the albums sound great to me again now, and pretty much 'classic' albums that have stood the test of time, esp 'Icon'.

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Last edited by Stat_Rad on Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:32 pm
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Post Re: Losing fists
FMV - I know what you mean about Vulgar... as it was a real "Woah, fucking HELL!" album when it first came out, but by the time Far Beyond Driven was in the stores it had become an album of A-sides (especially the video/singles) and B-sides due to how much Hostile, Walk, This Love, Mouth for War, A New Level, Hollow were being pushed everywhere, the other songs were overlooked, so it/they became about the "singles" more so than the album, and then by not being so straight ahead chest beaty, they showed more depth on the next 2.

Have to say, though, it took me a while to get into each of Far Beyond and Trendkill. I'm not sure why, but they just both seemed too much to take in smoothly, but overtime they're the albums I'm more likely to listen to.

That said, the impact of Vulgar... was such that perhaps it's due to overhearing throughout my teens (I don't think I ever need to hear Walk again) that it's not one that I go to very often

Good post Statto has appeared while I was writing this, will digest and reply in a bit


Last edited by Admiral Steev on Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:33 pm
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Super Trooper
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Post Re: Losing fists
Flotsam & Jetsam's Doomsday For The Deciever got 6 K 'fists' which was too much at the time I wonder if its even a 5 now.


Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:21 pm
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Post Re: Losing fists
Some fair points there Statto, and I agree with you on points 1 and 2.

With regards 3, I'm on board with the concept but I'd disagree (of course, wouldn't be right otherwise) on a couple of the examples (we'll stay out of the PL debate, I think it's more me than anything else with them). Anyway, I still think Principle stands up today (though another that could do with a remaster, it's so quiet!). It's a one off - Vempire, Dusk, Cruelty, Midian are all a different style and a different band and a progression on each each other - but I think Principle sits outside that, lording it up on it's own throne of lesbian vampires.

I accept your point on 1000 Lakes in that it's such a time and place album I think if you got it then you love it, but if someone who hadn't heard it before was to pick it up today for the first time they probably wouldn't give it the love, that's fair enough.


Last edited by Admiral Steev on Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:35 pm
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Post Re: Losing fists
Somewhere between 4 & 2 for F&J DDFTD. The only thing worth 5 fists is their cover of Saturday Nights Alright For Fighting!
I think Elegy got 5 when it came out it and shouldnt lost any fists compared to Tales which should for that early 90's dodgy sound.
Icon is timeless and shouldnt lose anything unlike Drac which sounds draconian like most of those mid-90's albums (eg. Demanufacture, Burn My Eyes) even though the DVD succeeded to make it sound more modern.
Principle Of Evil should not lose fists just on principle! Like ITNSE its a classic!


Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:39 pm
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Post Re: Losing fists
Disagree BLack. Production wise, Draconian has stood up far better than those other albums you mentioned.

As for Elegy, Terrorizer gave it 5, but it didn't end up in their AOTY list for 1996. I think some aspects of Elegy have certainly dated. It's still a very good album though. It took a while to grow on me though. and i remember thinking that it was too produced or something. That the sound was just too elaborate, and lacked that cold, wintry vibe that was so appealing about their previous work. However, once i adjusted, i was hooked, and i guess my problem with Amorphis now is that ever since Pasi left the band, there hasn't been much in the way of progression.

They still write good songs, but they are more predictable. You know where the riffs and melodies are going 80% of the time.

Steev: The basic elements of COF's sound were established on Principle. Yes they did change a few things, but it's still recognisably the work of the same band.

Dani's vocals changed a lot though, definitely.

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Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:58 pm
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Post Re: Losing fists
The "basic elements" of Cradle (as we know them today) were in place on Vempire, which is why Principle is stand alone to me. It's just a completely different vibe to anything came afterwards, it's much darker, more "evil" sounding and less melodic, trady guitar riffs, the keys are more Hammer Horror and less gay and twinkly (though even then there was Forest Whispers... which clearly was a path Dani went more and more with from then on). But though the atmosphere is different, there's clear stylistic elements that stayed in their sound from Principle onwards of course, though the role of the keys changed.

Cruelty... onwards is, effectively, a different band altogether, as the writers of Principle and Dusk had left by then to be replaced by new writer(s) - other than Dani of course - and that's where more and more emphasis on melodic guitar leads comes to the fore in their sound.


Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:06 pm
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Post Re: Losing fists
Judging by the comments in Top Three Albums of the week thread, Solefald can qualify here. The first two albums were critically acclaimed but seems a number think the albums are rather dated. Admittedly i havent listened to them in probably a decade so can't comment.


Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:37 pm
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Post Re: Losing fists
Dissection storm of the lights bane.listened to it today and thought how much better the debut and contemporary acts like Unanimated and Dawn were...

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Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:41 pm
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Post Re: Losing fists
I'd disagree on Storm of the Light's Bane. Think it still stands up now, listened to it a week or so ago and was impressed with it's vim and vigour and the how memorable and strong the songs still are.

Actually, glad you mention Dawn... Slaughtersun was a belter, but I haven't listened to it in a long time - may have to bump it off the list.


Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:00 pm
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Post Re: Losing fists
blacklorre wrote:
Flotsam & Jetsam's Doomsday For The Deciever got 6 K 'fists' which was too much at the time I wonder if its even a 5 now.


4 fists.

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Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:01 am
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Post Re: Losing fists
First two Cradle Of Filth albums is all you need.

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Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:15 am
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Post Re: Losing fists
Powersteev wrote:
I'd disagree on Storm of the Light's Bane. Think it still stands up now, listened to it a week or so ago and was impressed with it's vim and vigour and the how memorable and strong the songs still are.

Actually, glad you mention Dawn... Slaughtersun was a belter, but I haven't listened to it in a long time - may have to bump it off the list.


"Slaughtersun" gets a regular airing round these parts. Getting on for 15 years now. That's some impressive staying power.

It's easy for me put myself in the mind frame of something older that I used to listen to more than I might now. I hear dated techniques and simpler ideas a little clearer, but I'm hard pressed to pick something that hasn't aged well.

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Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:16 am
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Post Re: Losing fists
I initially thought 'Monothesit' and 'Axe To Fall' were both 5/5. Turned out they were both 4.


Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:28 am
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Post Re: Losing fists
Clint Ruin wrote:
I initially thought 'Monothesit' and 'Axe To Fall' were both 5/5. Turned out they were both 4.


I'd give Monotheist 4.5.

I rarely ever give 5 fists. I think an album has to stand the test of time before i can give it that rating.

which is why i'll never be a good music journalist ;)

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Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:56 am
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Post Re: Losing fists
Stat_Rad wrote:
I'd give Monotheist 4.5.

I rarely ever give 5 fists. I think an album has to stand the test of time before i can give it that rating.



So 4.5 means "a 5 but too afraid to give a 5 in case it's wrong" basically?

In that system 5's are treated reverentially compared to every other score - which is partiality. A 5 is a 5 - which means enough above a 4 to be a 5, not some kind of perfection - only to be used carefully. Every fist score should be equally careful and precise.


Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:47 am
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Post Re: Losing fists
Very.


Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:50 am
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Post Re: Losing fists
Na, i am with statty, top scores should only be given for truly exceptional albums. You should not dish out five fist scores like confetti.


Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:59 am
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