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 Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem 
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Opinionated Loudmouth. Perkele!
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
The whole premise. It's awful journalism in a shit article, and every response to follow that credits it, is total, total bullshit. Been hanging around rehearsal rooms, gigs, studios, going to shows, following underground music for 25 odd years in the UK. And I have no fuckin clue what people are actually talking about, still, apart from a bunch of uncited, inspecific, wooly garbage.

Straight up. Let's clear this up. No google - name 3 incidents in your lifetime of anything that could even tenuously be called social justice warriorism impacting your local underground scene, a show near-ish to you, something you enjoyed. If you can't - come up with ANY examples, worldwide, that you recall. Taake pepper spray is the only thing that comes close so far. Phil Ansemlo controversy over his "White Power" recently - never been an example of metal underground, fuck off, Type O Negative were not a fucking underground metal band either. Then go to google and see if you can research incidences. Let's look at the show and see who's side you fall on. The cancellers, or the cancelees.

Sponsored chain venues, Clear Channel, sponsored tours, acts on majors or their subsidiaries - not underground. Anyone in an independent music performance/recording situation would not be 'forced' to cancel anything, or somehow change or water down their music due to.. er.. well, I'm not sure really, this idea in particular is absurd to me when I think about any band I've ever known and how they've started, and written music... they would just stand by whatever thing they've supposedly done in the face of whatever pressure? They just put their show on, release their shit, speak their minds, do their thing. These people exist all over the god damn place.

Like... "Thankfully parts of black metal still don't give a fuck" - what did you mean by this?.... I'm not being a cunt about it - what do you actually mean? Like, are you thankful that the Ukranian NSBM scene, teeming as it is with the lifesblood of musical awesomeness, is sticking to "its" political guns?

Not only that - when it comes down to it, do I support facists, racists? No, I fucking dont. Do I think people have the right to protest or interfere? Yes, as much as anyone espousing the questionable views or doing the dodgy stuff had to do so in the first place. Same with football, it does sicken me to hear people chanting monkey noises at black players and I support harsh banning of the people that do it, and games being played behind closed doors at stadiums where such a thing is a constant problem.

And... I haven't listened to Enabler once since I read that shit about the main guy being an awful bastard and a rapist - it did taint the band, I don't have any of their records anymore and wouldn't see them again. Not supporting him, fuck him. No SJW required to know the difference between right and wrong there.

Come on, clear it up. I say outright, this is fictional balls and eye AIDS.


Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:40 am
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
Antifa tried to sabotage this years satanic warmaster show in Glasgow by threatening the promoter and management of the venue that was announced, resulting in that venue pulling out, they've done the same about next years graveland show in London.p, and again the venue has pulled out. Whilst SW did go ahead, and I expect Graveland too as well it's a headache for promoters and leaves fans in the dark until the last minute.

By that statement I mean that at least parts of metal don't care about whether a magazine may call them nazis or whatever they've decided that band stands for, mostly these are black metal bands. Extreme music will and should have extreme content, if you don't like it don't support it, I for one don't like pronogrind or mysoginistic bands like Waco Jesus but I don't think they should be censored, I choose to ignore them.

For fucks sake if Slayer had been anew band these days they'd be hung drawn and quartered over their imagery and lyrical content.

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Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:41 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
I was going to Morbosisdad's London show, but the tour got cancelled after some guy from a punk band moaned about them having a cow's head on stage.
I really want to see Peste Noire, but they're getting kicked off every festival they get booked on.


Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:54 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
Dr Yail Bloor wrote:
Antifa tried to sabotage this years satanic warmaster show in Glasgow by threatening the promoter and management of the venue that was announced, resulting in that venue pulling out, they've done the same about next years graveland show in London.p, and again the venue has pulled out. Whilst SW did go ahead, and I expect Graveland too as well it's a headache for promoters and leaves fans in the dark until the last minute.

By that statement I mean that at least parts of metal don't care about whether a magazine may call them nazis or whatever they've decided that band stands for, mostly these are black metal bands. Extreme music will and should have extreme content, if you don't like it don't support it, I for one don't like pronogrind or mysoginistic bands like Waco Jesus but I don't think they should be censored, I choose to ignore them.

For fucks sake if Slayer had been anew band these days they'd be hung drawn and quartered over their imagery and lyrical content.


They call themselves antifascists and seek to censor?

Terrible self awareness :lol:


Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:39 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
Shame, guilt, "toxic masculinity", "safe spaces", minorities, etc....The Guardian on moshpits.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/ ... t-numbered


Mon May 29, 2017 2:06 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
I think it is a shit article that has missed the origin of this problem, but it's not entirely incorrect. I really like punk and hardcore shows and a certain element of it has become fucking awful, and they should be shamed, guilted, it is disgusting. It is genuine violence.

The measures they're reporting on are [edit:more of] a response to crowd killing [and to e.g.sexual violence], not "mosh pits", which is a) an actual problem for me very much in the manner of FUCK OFF and b) has ruined more shows for me than a, er, pretend problem (i.e.thread title) ever will. People do get hurt, often, and again - bands are playing venues, of their own will, which need to be insured to exist at all i.e.lest they take measures to stop this happening, it being an actual real life - not pretend - problem. It is a trend to hurt people at music shows, is it only me who winces? Doing something about it to protect more vulnerable people is totally in the spirit of hardcore. XXX. All Ages and all that? scene... unity.... No? Remember?.... Nah just everyone doing anything they see fit, righto.

No mate.

The safe space, zero tolerance thing is kind of hot news in HC. More comes out of America as far as I can tell and at the moment, it is a band or venue choice. Bands are ruining their own shows by being social justice warriors against themselves? Errrr, no, what % of musicians want their fans leaving venues having been assaulted in some way? It's so fucking weak to expect people to shut up and bear it "cos we didn't talk about it in the good old days so it wasn't an issue". It fucking was, e.g.women have always been getting assaulted in pits and crowdsurfing, and people didn't deal with it, and now the genre(s) is/are a lot more popular and populous, and it's become magnified. If you deny or ignored it, you're... born in the 50's or what? "We don't talk about what the reverand did", like??..

It's big news especially after what happened to the girl from Code Orange - a crowd killer type dancer got on stage, spin kicked her in the face with steelies, smashed her face to literal pieces. Ho hum, hilarious, brilliant. Mate it's fucking awful and it's not a surprise which is even more awful.

This is another shit, wrong-slant article by another toe-dipping tourist douchebag that does nothing to make this thread worth reading. Nobody is trying to get moshing banned from shows, they're trying to stop people getting hurt at shows by a trend propogated by absolute morons, mainly in the US. Again, remove context, someone comes up to me in the street flailing his arms and legs in a violent manner, near my missus (if I wasn't a cunt and ever had one), I would lay him down or try my fucking hardest. Why should I have it at a show I'm paying to see?

I'm telling you Robitusson, this entire premise is a shit smeared fuckup. No-one's attacking underground metal. The majority are speaking against a cancerous minority. I feel like you're on the wrong side of the argument and joining in with being reactionary about stuff you should be taking with a pinch of salt from agenda-based publications in the first place, and coming off to me like an SJW... for metal.


Mon May 29, 2017 2:57 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
It's one thing to care about safety, but the problem with these debates of recent times is the way they are framed in terms of "toxic masculinity" and whatever buzzwords are currently being employed to describe behavior or social practices that appears stereotypically masculine.

Most pits have always been potentially dangerous places for both men and women. There has always been an element of risk involved in participating in them.

A concern for safety is absolutely legitimate and always has been, nobody's arguing otherwise, and I'm sure that isn't what Robit is suggesting. Just like him, I too am bothered by an agenda driven crusade that masquerades under the banner of safety and social concern.

Having said that, we are definitely at a point in the culture where things cannot continue as they have for the last few decades. I'm not sure what the solution is, but I know that it has nothing to do with eradicating so-called 'toxic masculinity', especially when the impression I get is that the crowds at metal and rock shows are far tamer than they used to be.

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Mon May 29, 2017 3:57 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
FlockaJawaka wrote:
I think it is a shit article that has missed the origin of this problem, but it's not entirely incorrect. I really like punk and hardcore shows and a certain element of it has become fucking awful, and they should be shamed, guilted, it is disgusting. It is genuine violence.

The measures they're reporting on are [edit:more of] a response to crowd killing [and to e.g.sexual violence], not "mosh pits", which is a) an actual problem for me very much in the manner of FUCK OFF and b) has ruined more shows for me than a, er, pretend problem (i.e.thread title) ever will. People do get hurt, often, and again - bands are playing venues, of their own will, which need to be insured to exist at all i.e.lest they take measures to stop this happening, it being an actual real life - not pretend - problem. It is a trend to hurt people at music shows, is it only me who winces? Doing something about it to protect more vulnerable people is totally in the spirit of hardcore. XXX. All Ages and all that? scene... unity.... No? Remember?.... Nah just everyone doing anything they see fit, righto.

No mate.

The safe space, zero tolerance thing is kind of hot news in HC. More comes out of America as far as I can tell and at the moment, it is a band or venue choice. Bands are ruining their own shows by being social justice warriors against themselves? Errrr, no, what % of musicians want their fans leaving venues having been assaulted in some way? It's so fucking weak to expect people to shut up and bear it "cos we didn't talk about it in the good old days so it wasn't an issue". It fucking was, e.g.women have always been getting assaulted in pits and crowdsurfing, and people didn't deal with it, and now the genre(s) is/are a lot more popular and populous, and it's become magnified. If you deny or ignored it, you're... born in the 50's or what? "We don't talk about what the reverand did", like??..

It's big news especially after what happened to the girl from Code Orange - a crowd killer type dancer got on stage, spin kicked her in the face with steelies, smashed her face to literal pieces. Ho hum, hilarious, brilliant. Mate it's fucking awful and it's not a surprise which is even more awful.

This is another shit, wrong-slant article by another toe-dipping tourist douchebag that does nothing to make this thread worth reading. Nobody is trying to get moshing banned from shows, they're trying to stop people getting hurt at shows by a trend propogated by absolute morons, mainly in the US. Again, remove context, someone comes up to me in the street flailing his arms and legs in a violent manner, near my missus (if I wasn't a cunt and ever had one), I would lay him down or try my fucking hardest. Why should I have it at a show I'm paying to see?

I'm telling you Robitusson, this entire premise is a shit smeared fuckup. No-one's attacking underground metal. The majority are speaking against a cancerous minority. I feel like you're on the wrong side of the argument and joining in with being reactionary about stuff you should be taking with a pinch of salt from agenda-based publications in the first place, and coming off to me like an SJW... for metal.

There was an AC/DC show in Canada I thin,k where they told however many people attending - 10s of 1000s probably - that they couldnt bring peanuts. They didn't want anyone who might be allergic to have a problem at the show. So 1000s and 1000s of people had to change something usually totally safe and enjoyable for the sake of the safety of a tiny few.

Same thing with what you're talking about. One woman gets bashed in her face from an idiot on stage - regrettable of course - so everyone else has to stop.

Maybe it's all reasonable -maybe not. But the clue from that Guardian article (and more generally) is in the language. If couching this in terms like "toxic masculinity", "straight men" or "gendered conversations" isn't a huge red flag for you, then frankly youre being duped.

Personally Id much prefer a happy surfing and moshing crowd surfing to a load of passive, "untoxic males" standing there recording the show on their phones and checking for likes on fucking facebook.


Mon May 29, 2017 4:00 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
No, what we've been presented with is a piece of shitty bandwagon pretend-giving-a-fuck journalism, over something they don't know about i.e.reporting nothing, that has ended up being a chinese-whispers version of a real life problem.

What I said was - the article is right, for the wrong reasons, and "toxic masculinity" does actually perfectly describe what the article SHOULD have been reporting on, which is what they safe space shows are actually about.

It symbolizes this ongoing thread/argument in a fucking fascinating way. I've re-read, it's mental. You all know right from wrong and I'm seeing people get precious about the wrong, just because there are loudmouths knocking about in the world with social agenda who rub you up the wrong way. They're different problems which are being conflated. Meanwhile, I'm gonna keep bitching out because I aint seeing what youre seeing, and when someone comes to me going like "a band had to cancel because social justice vegetarians banned them having a cow's head on stage".

Know what you are if you just HAVE a dead cow's head? A fucking nincompoop is what. Metalhead fucking nincompoops are more annoying than the social justice warriors you're pretending are ruining your fun. Granted, they're ruining a lot of people's days, everywhere, a lot.


Mon May 29, 2017 4:08 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
robitusson wrote:
Same thing with what you're talking about. One woman gets bashed in her face from an idiot on stage - regrettable of course - so everyone else has to stop.


In this particular instance, I do not see it like this whatsoever, and I think this is reactionary and childish as well. Talk me through it. You're saying people shouldn't have to stop being violent at shows?

[edit - same with peanuts. Scenario: "hello venue, I've bought tickets and i'm going to DIE if anyone comes in with peanuts, mind putting some signs up because taking peanuts to a gig is the weirdest fucking shit you've ever heard of right?? Noone will give a fuck and I wont die?" "Course, that is reasonable sir"

Are you kidding me, you think anything was spoiled by not taking peanuts to the show? hah. Everyone power partying their peanuts at the door. WHAT YOU ON ABOUT. You're nutters.

The face smash] isn't an isolated incident and it isn't just regrettable, I mean... a member of the band performing essentially had her face kicked off by someone who was doing something that happens chronically. Yeah, it's time to start thinking about it being a safe place to go again. (We might as well address e.g.unwelcome fingerings while we're at it eh?)

For years, I've been seeing people stopping putting shows on, big heartfelt pleas from really good promoters on whatever media they used - which itself has helped lead to venues closing down in major UK cities all over, because of this specific sort of violent behaviour, or something equally retarded. I've been saying all along in this thread; "metal", if you like, is a danger unto itself miles more than this supposed issue is, and it really is because of things like this. At the core of it, there are serious morons. They're the ones spoiling it for everyone, yes, and you'll find the majority of people shouting against you - including me, evidently - if you seem to be saying that they shouldn't be squeezed out. Which you seem to have throughout.

I remember something getting cancelled in Leeds because they'd put "No Faggotry" on the sign outside the pub. The reason? Everyone told him he was an idiot and he insisted it was all good, everyone shouted him down, he cancelled the cunt and fled off. It's not about being sensitive to the words, it's about not wanting anything to do with morons.


Last edited by FlockaJawaka on Mon May 29, 2017 9:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Mon May 29, 2017 4:21 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
Hopefully antifa get bored and move on to something else, scum.

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Mon May 29, 2017 5:37 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
robitusson wrote:
Personally Id much prefer a happy surfing and moshing crowd surfing to a load of passive, "untoxic males" standing there recording the show on their phones and checking for likes on fucking facebook.


So would I, man. In spirit, anyway - I'm too old to actually do it.

That isn't the point. Venues and spaces will deplete, and shows will go, with violence and injury and sexual assault becoming synonymous with heavy music; and people will for sure paint the tar broadly, guaranteed. What does go ahead will be a very sterile, different thing. It's happening, it is such a problem that people are putting zero tolerances up at small spaces and sheds now, because folks won't respond.

And I'm glad you made this point, the phone thing stuck and I was thinking about this today, it rung a bell. Now THAT shit is happening at every gig. Couldn't we start an SJW type cause as well?

People operating their mobile phones has genuinely, 100% had an impact on my enjoyment of gigs since they started putting cameras on them. Exponential since the smartphone, where the rear-facing screen acts as a viewfinder and gets well in your eyeline. Every shithead is at it. No-one gives a fuck. No-one seems to be asking why there needs to be more than one multi angled video, ever, or why it's OK to put something in the air in front of other people's eyelines at shows without even considering?

I'm definitely saying it isn't OK with me.

The measure - filming stuff is easy now. It isn't expensive to get the gear, tape a set, upload it, store it, edit it, it can all be done for next to/nothing including people who're just excited and willing to do it. It becomes a movement, a social justice movement, for it to be de rigeur that as part of a PA or stage setup, there are integrated cameras, plus optional extras ones for posher nobs. The venue has a big QR code at the door, on its flyers for that gig, goes straight to the video on the video Channel, it vows to upload/feed/put 1000000 photos up of every gig, on the absolute rule that no-one is holding their shit aloft.

No more grown men going "no, I need my particular style of special video cameraing for clever people off of a mobile phone that has special traces of my cum on it, these other 300 grown men and women's just won't do".

So are you in, or out? Can we turn this debate which I made rather sweary into a positive and make hypocrites of everyone? I'm in, fuck it, don't care at all about being a hypocrite if it suits me.

But then who is actually going to come out and stand strong on the path of camera-yielding? :lol: And if no-one even owns up, either at least 80% of us are liars, or all the good eggs come here. I don't own a camera at all so bollox.


Tue May 30, 2017 9:06 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
I'm not Donald Trumps biggest fan but his supporters know just want to do with Antifa :lol:

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Wed May 31, 2017 10:58 am
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
Ha ha brilliant, fuck antifa.

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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
And The Dickies are kicked of the "punk" WARPED tour for being offensive.

http://www.avclub.com/article/dickies-f ... sti-257750


Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:21 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
robitusson wrote:
And The Dickies are kicked of the "punk" WARPED tour for being offensive.

http://www.avclub.com/article/dickies-f ... sti-257750


Warped has always been about marketing, not music. And the band has penis in their name.

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Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:41 am
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
I don't want to trawl all the way back through this thread, but is the whole SJW thing in metal/hardcore more of a North American phenomenon? Cause it certainly isn't something that you see down here (in saying that the metal/hardcore communities are pretty small in the scheme of things).

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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
Interestingly New Jersey just classified antifa as 'domestic terrorists'.

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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
http://www.metalsucks.net/2017/08/24/an ... remacists/

Quote:
An Open Letter to Hells Headbangers Records to Stop Releasing and Distributing Metal by White Supremacists

......
Here is the open letter in full:

Quote:
Dear HHR,

Over the last decade and a half you’ve risen to become one of the strongest underground metal labels. You’ve released many of the best recent records in the genre from bands new and old, and your brand has come to be synonymous with true, uncompromising cult metal. For this we salute you.

In recent years, though, you’ve also become one of the most prominent distributors of NSBM and similar right-wing extremist music in the USA. We understand that your label is conceived of as apolitical and that you’re in it for the metal and not the ideologies expressed; however, you’re playing a leading role in normalizing neo-Nazi ideals in our genre and in providing a venue for this kind of bigoted propaganda.

We are living in times in which the extreme right is resurgent around the world and in which neo-Nazis have no qualms about targeting and murdering immigrants, LGBT people, racial minorities, and leftists. Fascists are using metal for propaganda and recruiting ends, and your distro and label are enabling them. This is no time for apolitical fence sitting, and we request that you take a stand towards a better state of things for metal.

With respect and appreciation for the bulk of your releases, we ask you to clean up your act and promptly do the following:

1. Cease your distribution of NS and far-right labels such as (but not limited to) Darker than Black, Pagan War, Werewolf Records, and Elegy Records

2. Purge your distro of NS/far-right releases and your label of NS/far-right bands, including Intolitarian and releases by SSP/Deathangle Absolution

3. Publicly commit to a policy, going forward, of avoiding relationships with NS/far-right bands, artists, and labels.

Should you fail to do so, we call for a boycott of your label by metal journalists, distros, venues and fans, and will apply whatever other pressure we find appropriate. Your label is known for its high aesthetic standards; please consider whether you also want it to be known for promoting neo-Nazi trash.




It actually seemed pretty reasonable until the ominous "will apply whatever other pressure we find appropriate" part.


Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:55 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
Good response in general here from Matt Harvey as a Decibel guest editorial...

https://www.decibelmagazine.com/2017/08 ... istribute/


Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:02 pm
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