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 Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem 
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Opinionated Loudmouth. Perkele!
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
Stat_Rad wrote:
SJW's don't belong in metal. They are bored moralistic losers desperately clinging to a false identity of being social crusaders. They are the heroes of their own bullshit narratives.

Metal is not a safe space and these assholes should not be tolerated at all.


I agree that I don't need things sanitising for me, but otherwise I do disagree man - metal is really safe. 1982 was a million years ago. What on earth is so unsafe about any single metal band or part of the scene that exists today? I gather you're Australian so it might feel different being on literally the other side of the planet, but to me it is a conservative and staid and boring, shows are full of twerps who think they're cleverer than everyone else, and above mob mentality. But who really characterise a mob to a tee. Often a casually/obliviously misogynistic, hypocritical, cowardly drink-throwing, i-Phone raising, smelly lot. Everyone looks the same, too many act the same once they're gathered, most of the bands operate within a REALLY tight range of (3+ decade old) tropes. Danger to metal is when someone dares fuck with those margins, and new blood is often hugely controversial and alienating to large parts of the fanbase. Moreso when the crossovers get popular with a new crowd of people who - gasp - weren't at the first Prostitute Murderers Rule show in '93.

I'm not against metal, that's not the point. I enjoy loads of it and go to some shows. But metal is silly and theatrical and kind of fun, it's so not edgy or dangerous. When I do go to shows, I nearly always feel the crowds are objectionable in large part, and SHOULD be subject to some scrutinies. That's metal shows from everyone to High On Fire at the dive to Machine Head at the large theater.

The article is quite silly to me, it pivots around terms that have zero real world meaning. Someone else asked this - name a single instance of how you've been oppressed in some way by the actions of a "social justice warrior" in the "underground metal scene". I go to all sorts of gigs all the time (to a limit, I avoid certain venues/vibes) in one of the world's major cities, and I've no idea what any of this is really going on about.

I don't think the actions of e.g.Antifa at Taake, as an isolated incident, is even a reasonable basis for such a piece. And even then, when I think about how it really boiled down... which side would I fall on myself? The nasty black metal right wingers? Or the violent ultra left wing antifascists? It's not much of a choice, but it'd be the lefties. I don't condone the pepper spraying in this example, and wouldn't actually associate myself with an activist group like that, but to me, that is "social justice warriors" vs social cancers and I know where I would stand in a hypothetical either/or, with an intuitive and easy choice.

This is the reality as I see it: if for example a band or band member acts objectionably, and said band gets pulled from an event, you can 99% guarantee it was because the event was sponsored by an organisation who's association with said person or action presented a PR risk.

Musicians in this situation and their fans are naive idiots if they think that is political correctness or "social justice warriors". When the pen hit the page in the very first instance, you signed up to represent these organisations, and if you want out of that deal then... er, maybe a quick sitdown by an adult is in order, about how contracts work and how you're a long-gone sellout fuckhead. Further, if these musicians and fans don't like that environment, sorry - well that's what metal largely is. I don't recall a metal show I've been to in recent memory that wasn't.

Put a show on yourself, then. Subject yourself to the real risk of playing to an empty room by being principled, and just do music for the fuck of it. Because you love it, don't you? That's the real music underground.

But then of course bands don't get to act out masturbatory, baying-crowd fantasies. And fans don't get to participate in all the dangerous tropes of metal like thrusting your arm toward the attic with another 1000 goobers. Indeed, good luck getting 50 people through the door. And then - you have to deal with either people with left wing sort of attitudes - more likely in my area at DIY shows, because DIY shows are more common in the punk/hardcore scene which is inherantly left-leaning - OR... even worse... you'll be the one having to deal with the objectionable behaviours of the people that so-called social justice warriors fight against. Then how would one feel about it?

"[sulk sulk] the Clear Channel event at the O2 Academy sponsored by Carlsberg... probably the best metal in the world... was pulled because the singer went on a racist rant - fucking social justice warriors!". Proper vomitisation.


Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:06 am
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
FlockaJawaka wrote:
Musicians in this situation and their fans are naive idiots if they think that is political correctness or "social justice warriors".


Nonsense. They both come from the same source. The reason that SJW's can 'pressure' organisations is because the organisations already have built in mechanisms to avoid social criticism. i.e offending pussies like them.

As for the idea that lefties are less harmful, yeah right. You do realise that democide--which mostly occurred in communist nations--was the biggest cause of death in the 20th century right?

Stalin was just as bad as Hitler, if not worse, despite what these revisionist leftists cultists want us to believe.

The extreme left don't represent the lesser of two evils. In practice their ideas cause death, misery and widespread poverty.

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Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:18 am
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
If you think about it you have BNP/NF on one side and you have Antifa/UAF on the other. This makes ethnic Europeans the most racist people on the planet because not only do we have hate groups who hate ethnic minorities but we have hate groups who hate our own too.


Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:50 am
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
FlockaJawaka wrote:
When I do go to shows, I nearly always feel the crowds are objectionable in large part, and SHOULD be subject to some scrutinies.

Any suggestions on who should do this scrutinising? And what should be done about the things that are "objectionable"?


Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:12 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
robitusson wrote:
FlockaJawaka wrote:
When I do go to shows, I nearly always feel the crowds are objectionable in large part, and SHOULD be subject to some scrutinies.

Any suggestions on who should do this scrutinising? And what should be done about the things that are "objectionable"?


The most probable answers to those questions are a) the self righteous and b) censored.


Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:25 pm
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Opinionated Loudmouth. Perkele!
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
Stat_Rad wrote:
FlockaJawaka wrote:
Musicians in this situation and their fans are naive idiots if they think that is political correctness or "social justice warriors".


Nonsense. They both come from the same source. The reason that SJW's can 'pressure' organisations is because the organisations already have built in mechanisms to avoid social criticism. i.e offending pussies like them.

As for the idea that lefties are less harmful, yeah right. You do realise that democide--which mostly occurred in communist nations--was the biggest cause of death in the 20th century right?

Stalin was just as bad as Hitler, if not worse, despite what these revisionist leftists cultists want us to believe.

The extreme left don't represent the lesser of two evils. In practice their ideas cause death, misery and widespread poverty.


You actually think that Stalinism is representative of the political/social left in 2016? I've never met a Stalinist or anyone who believes in Communism - people realise that old models of communism were abhorrent, tyrannical and murderous - you're right, it is more akin to the right wing of Nazi Germany, and as bad if not worse. No-one believes in that in the real world. It's just a tired and very shallow word association with - again - no real meaning.

And I'm not a great sympathiser to left wing groups in the sense that we're discussing them, as "SJW"s. They're certainly not socialists, they're just as hateful and pro-censorship as the people they fight up against. I find people who claim left are more usually centre-left psuedo liberals who take the logos of social justice as they see it within a super narrow margin of debate or subject matter, and run with them without any depth of argument - like a prescribed antagonistic political brand in a way that is actually befitting and productive for the current model of crypto-right wing globalism they think they're against - in so far as it is basically an ineffectual, pretend antithesis.

And I'm not talking nonsense about corporate PR damage. Companies want maximum capture and sponsor events to generate exposure. It's the long and short of it regardless of the nature of the pressure on them - there are all sorts of pressure groups and lobbyists and there always have been, most I can think of are more conservative and generally pro-censorship than (pseudo) liberal anyway.


Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:31 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
In short I think Flockajowaka is trying to distance his own left wing economic beliefs from the Liberal thugs we see today which is fair enough seeing though if I was a Keynesian (which I'm not) I'd hate to be associated with the likes of that lot.


Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:37 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
robitusson wrote:
FlockaJawaka wrote:
When I do go to shows, I nearly always feel the crowds are objectionable in large part, and SHOULD be subject to some scrutinies.

Any suggestions on who should do this scrutinising? And what should be done about the things that are "objectionable"?


Nothing. It's not really a practical suggestion, it is more that this is my instinctive reaction when the behaviour of some nincompoop who can't comport themselves in a reasonable way spoils my night. They've no more right to do that than a "social justice warrior" has to do what they do, so it's all a big pile of bullshit, a bullshit article, a bullshit arguement, and that was kind of my point.


Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:39 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
So people should be subject to scrutiny, but they shouldn't actually, because....it's all bullshit.

:?:


Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:56 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
FlockaJawaka wrote:
You actually think that Stalinism is representative of the political/social left in 2016? I've never met a Stalinist or anyone who believes in Communism - people realise that old models of communism were abhorrent, tyrannical and murderous - you're right, it is more akin to the right wing of Nazi Germany, and as bad if not worse. No-one believes in that in the real world. It's just a tired and very shallow word association with - again - no real meaning.


It was an example of how the left are just as dangerous as the right on the extreme fringe. and yes, Marxists still exist, but they are mostly powerless (thankfully).


FlockaJawaka wrote:
And I'm not talking nonsense about corporate PR damage. Companies want maximum capture and sponsor events to generate exposure.


No, but I think you are talking nonsense by dissociating the two. i.e politically correctness SJW type behaviour with PR moves. The only SJW's have power is because corporations have already bent over backwards not to offend so called 'minorities' and groups advocating for their 'rights'. SJW's only have power in an environment where sensitivities are acute, and they manipulate that sensitivity for their own ends.

Anyway, at this point so called 'liberals' need to start reading John Stuart Mill and realise that they are not liberals at all, just wankers.

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Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:05 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
Ah, Utilitarianism. Classic Liberal stuff, not the neoconservative stuff or the socialist bullshit we have but a political idea on keeping the largest number of people happy as possible. Where is this now?


Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:43 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
Well I wouldn't originate an article about this subject, Robitussin, and haven't. I can't give an elegantly closed-end answer to the matter either, because there are clearly dualities and hypocrisies around every corner. There always is when you try and make a black and white argument.

But I can say when someone's serving up a plate of imbalanced shite to me though (too much fat, not enough fiber!), which I think the article and debate is, and I'm trying to relate why I feel that is the case here - where we are scrutinising the very unconvincingly evidenced effects of "sjws" on a scene which IMO mutually encourages/enables equally shitty, inground, fully evidenced and unchallanged behaviours which have had actual effects on me. I can't speak for everybody, and most people probably arent as highly strung as me, but I think you must know what I mean if you hang out at shows.

Whereas the actions of "sjws" really hasn't even come onto radar in any way whatsoever in my music-seeking. Ever. Once. Ever. Priest survived it, Zappa survived it. Even if it did, we're still probably talking about just having your good time spoiled, albeit with something to go home and rant about in order to feel politically engaged.

So I just go back to:

Quote:
Someone else asked this - name a single instance of how you've been oppressed in some way by the actions of a "social justice warrior" in the "underground metal scene". I go to all sorts of gigs all the time (to a limit, I avoid certain venues/vibes) in one of the world's major cities, and I've no idea what any of this is really going on about


.....


Stat_Rad wrote:
FlockaJawaka wrote:
You actually think that Stalinism is representative of the political/social left in 2016? I've never met a Stalinist or anyone who believes in Communism - people realise that old models of communism were abhorrent, tyrannical and murderous - you're right, it is more akin to the right wing of Nazi Germany, and as bad if not worse. No-one believes in that in the real world. It's just a tired and very shallow word association with - again - no real meaning.


It was an example of how the left are just as dangerous as the right on the extreme fringe. and yes, Marxists still exist, but they are mostly powerless (thankfully).

FlockaJawaka wrote:
And I'm not talking nonsense about corporate PR damage. Companies want maximum capture and sponsor events to generate exposure.


No, but I think you are talking nonsense by dissociating the two. i.e politically correctness SJW type behaviour with PR moves. The only SJW's have power is because corporations have already bent over backwards not to offend so called 'minorities' and groups advocating for their 'rights'. SJW's only have power in an environment where sensitivities are acute, and they manipulate that sensitivity for their own ends.

Anyway, at this point so called 'liberals' need to start reading John Stuart Mill and realise that they are not liberals at all, just wankers.


Well we agree on a lot of things too. People who call themselves Marxists are likely shitehawks, again operating with no depth or understanding - all Marx did was predict the nature and outcome of capitalism, and he wasn't far wrong. He didn't espouse a social model, he just theorised the now-fully apparent effects of an emergent one that he opposed. That's why "Marxists" are redundant and powerless. Everyone should read Marx, he was a fucking bro and he loved you.

I'm not dissociating the two, really, I didn't mean it to come off like that - it's the flip side of it I was getting at - it is super broad, not limited to left or right, and not limited to metal, in any way. It's that metal folk are fully kidding themselves if they think they are dissociated from mainstream social culture, or aren't participating in it by "being metal". It's all over every aspect of it and just as prone to its insidiousness.

Plus there's a lot more to it in a wider social sense - corporations have to protect their PR mainly because people are litigious, regardless of whether it's about repression of minorites, perceived personal encroachments etc. etc., and we collectively enable that, rationalising it as "the way things are" - that is, allowing it to be a cultural norm. The result is this manifestation of companies dodging liability by dropping stuff like hot potatoes when it looks like it might get sore in some way.

So IMO a real left wing cause has to deal with some very difficult truths about who we are collectively, about responsibility, and that is why vacuous groups form under the semantic umbrella of left wing politics, because the reality is an absolute brickwall that feels almost insurmountable. To me, at least. That's why I can only ponder and sympathise, I don't have an actual answer. Apart from pogroms for metal heads :lol:, clearly.


Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:56 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
FlockaJawaka wrote:
Well I wouldn't originate an article about this subject, Robitussin, and haven't. I can't give an elegantly closed-end answer to the matter either, because there are clearly dualities and hypocrisies around every corner. There always is when you try and make a black and white argument.

But I can say when someone's serving up a plate of imbalanced shite to me though (too much fat, not enough fiber!), which I think the article and debate is, and I'm trying to relate why I feel that is the case here - where we are scrutinising the very unconvincingly evidenced effects of "sjws" on a scene which IMO mutually encourages/enables equally shitty, inground, fully evidenced and unchallanged behaviours which have had actual effects on me. I can't speak for everybody, and most people probably arent as highly strung as me, but I think you must know what I mean if you hang out at shows.

Whereas the actions of "sjws" really hasn't even come onto radar in any way whatsoever in my music-seeking. Ever. Once. Ever. Priest survived it, Zappa survived it. Even if it did, we're still probably talking about just having your good time spoiled, albeit with something to go home and rant about in order to feel politically engaged.

Ok, I think I've finally figured what you're trying to say. Visible, tangible behaviour that you don't like is much more apparent to you than what the article in the op is suggesting. Right?

But the issue with the "sjw" thing in metal is (as I've said) is its conforming, censorious influence. Shutting down shows, physically stopping events or releases is not the way this works by and large (although this is happening of course). If you look for that kind of evidence, you won't find much of it.

What you will find is a gradual blunting of what the music does and says as a uniformity of opinion and expression creeps in. Subtle cultural boundaries become evermore entrenched and as it creatively goes evermore down the pan.

Zappa and Priest survived direct attacks on freedom of expression from people who identified themselves as enemies of what they was doing. Today's censors come from within.

FlockaJawaka wrote:
all Marx did was predict the nature and outcome of capitalism, and he wasn't far wrong.

Marx's predictions were utter bullshit. Socialists knew this when WW1 failed to turn into the worker's uprising they all expected.


Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:26 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
Stat_Rad wrote:
Marxists still exist, but they are mostly powerless (thankfully).


I would say this whole current expression of "social justice" comes directly from Marx and it's definitely powerful. Lefties have long given up on the working class and replaced them with blacks, women, gays, etc. Through these annointed victim groups they can bring about the Marxist idea of conflict against the oppressors and a society progressing towards their warped ideal. It's working too. Capitalism have been successfully replaced by "patriarchy", "transphobia", "islamophobia" and a whole host of other invisible, imaginary problems.


Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:33 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
robitusson wrote:
I would say this whole current expression of "social justice" comes directly from Marx and it's definitely powerful. Lefties have long given up on the working class and replaced them with blacks, women, gays, etc. Through these annointed victim groups they can bring about the Marxist idea of conflict against the oppressors and a society progressing towards their warped ideal. It's working too. Capitalism have been successfully replaced by "patriarchy", "transphobia", "islamophobia" and a whole host of other invisible, imaginary problems.


I understand, but that isn't the same as Marxism. The irony is that these types think they are influenced by Foucault, but his understanding of power was more complex than that simplistic oppressor/oppressed dynamic.

RE: Marx and predictions. That is still a controversial topic. Marxists have been unable to identity a proper casual mechanism that can be verified empirically (or mathematically) for why a 'falling rate of profit' exists, and of course nobody takes his labour theory of value seriously anymore. He was also wrong about wages falling. Wages rose for a good part of the 20th century, and while real wages have fallen in recent times, his analysis is pretty much useless in explaining why that's the case.

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Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:44 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
OK. Let me get this straight. 'Metalheads' are sabotaging and attempting to subjugate the metal scene because they're a bunch of fucking pussies?

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Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:09 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
A counter to the original Decibel article by a guy from a band called Publicist (?)

http://decibelmagazine.com/blog/2016/6/ ... oles-are-1

Enjoyable and witty!

...until he gets to around the 4th paragraph when he starts going on about white males and "transphobia" and the marginalised and all the usual cliches and second-hand ideas about the imaginary problems these people peddle. :(


Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:44 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
Stat_Rad wrote:

Metal is not a safe space


Were you able to type that with a straight face?

Seriously, metal is damn safe. It was over twenty years ago that the crazy norwegians stabbed fags and burnt down churches and Bodycount got forced to drop Cop Killer.

For something that is meant to be extreme and underground, metal is frighteningly safe. I believe the blame can be laid on spinal tap, beavis and butthead, even Cradle of Filth with their "jesus is a cunt" t-shirts. Metal is dismissed as a joke, teenage boys trying to offend. The worst metal faces is ridiculous claims of subliminal messages, bans of cannibal corpse albums in germany and asking for it bans on offensive t-shirts.

Case in point after the Orlando shooting Discogs randomly banned anything it deemed contained hate material, including 20-30 year old records from Con-Dom and Grey Wolves, meanwhile Meatshits are untouched.


Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:27 pm
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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
robitusson wrote:
Agree to a certain extent. I certainly can't think of many direct examples. There's what the article mentions - Antifa setting off some kind of pepper spray at a Taake show in America. There was the Cobalt guy getting pressured to leave the band. Down shows getting cancelled. Disma shows cancelled. It's definitely having a direct impact elsewhere too. Eagles of Death Metal appearances cancelled, Action Bronson cancelled.

But the real damage is one of conformity - insidiously rounding off of any edges to make things "safe". It's all just one more factor in the long, slow demise of metal. The thing was, in the 80's, Tipper Gore was so damn easy to see. Now, that kind of influence is coming from people wearing the right shirts, listening to the cool bands, even playing in them.


Antifa are a separate issue from SJW. They have a crusade against anyone they tag as Nazi, Taake plays with swastika, one of Disma had a side project called Sturmfuhrer. On the one hand I am saying play with fire then expect to get burnt, but at the same time Antifa are fucking idiots unable to separate shock tactics from genuine beliefs, or that people can change over time

EODM, sorry but making stupid comments accusing security guards of being complicit with terrorists is asking for trouble. You can't lay all the blame on SJW

Saying that, I do agree there is some insidious influence going on, metal is safe, as per my previous post, and it is more than just metal being dismissed, it is a lack of true edge.

Case in point: would anyone in metal call their new album "Nigger Torture Chamber"? Probably not.


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Post Re: Decibel: the underground metal scene's SJW problem
Matsui wrote:

Case in point: would anyone in metal call their new album "Nigger Torture Chamber"? Probably not.


Not since Seth Putnam died.

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